Damage done by previous regime

Ole gave these players too much freedom, he was soft on them, thats why some of them are not disciplined, he pampered them a lot.

Ole was also not tactically astute, teams that play beautiful football are well thoroughly coached with attention paid to details, such luxury was not present during his time with us, thats why the players are not accustomed to the basic concept of triangular passing, possession oriented positioning, creating and exploiting spaces, high pitch pressing.

His regime is bygone now, lets stick with ralf to fix things up, ralf is not the way, he is here to show us the way.
 
Ole's legacy is signing Bruno. He is the main signing you can point to as a success and good for the future, potentially Sancho and Varane but it's too early to tell. You could potentially point to Greenwood but he was known and coming through before Ole, there weren't any other significant youth developments unfortunately.

I think come next season after Pogba, Mata, Lingard, VDB, Henderson, Martial, Cavani, and potentially Ronaldo (or 1 season more max) are gone and we've signed a new DM, new forward and whatever else the squad will start to look quite different to what is is now and we'll need to wait through another mini-rebuild before we're even close to winning the league, and clearly we need a lot of work in terms of training to match City/Liverpool. That puts Ole's impact as a couple of good signings for 3 years and 400 million and being as far away from City when he left as when he joined.
 
Previous sure this type of thread has been created after Moyes, LVG and Jose left.
Alot of damage caused by previous regimes.
 
stevoc said:
So just to clarify you are saying football shouldn't use league positions to determine who was the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc. best teams over 38 games that season?



We started a new season?

I'm not sure why some are having a hard time wrapping their heads around the concept league competitions.



Have you informed the Premier League mate? They were working under the impression we were when they handed out the prize money and allocated CL spots.
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The team with the best results is not necessarily the best team. Results can be flukes, influenced by coincidences and 1000 other factors. Nobody will deny that we gained the 2nd most points last seasons. But many will deny that that made us the 2nd best team of the league. You've seen our match against Norwich I assume, we were not necessarily the better team, but we got the better result. Results cannot be debated, performances can. And they allow to assume trends. Usually I am of the other side of that accusation but I am pretty sure, you know exactly what is meant by this point.
 
The Brown Bull said:
The point is obvious. Our 2nd place was a false position.We were not title contenders which is the very least we should be.We are not contenders this year either.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
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Nothing false about it. We had a shit start to the season and still managed to finish second. That's quite an achievement all things considered.
This season we shit the bed and ole paid for it with his job.
Credit should be given where it's due, as should criticism. But shitting on finishing second is just plain ridiculous.
 
While I appreciate the posts here that paint this thread as a disgrace it’s actually quite useful for any organization to assess lessons learned from previous successes as well as failures.

The damage done by the previous regime is quite extensive. We’re all pitching in with our own observations as to what Ole got right and wrong. It would be negligent of us to ignore the damage and pretend that the past has no bearing on the present.
 
NZT-One said:
The team with the best results is not necessarily the best team. Results can be flukes, influenced by coincidences and 1000 other factors. Nobody will deny that we gained the 2nd most points last seasons. But many will deny that that made us the 2nd best team of the league. You've seen our match against Norwich I assume, we were not necessarily the better team, but we got the better result. Results cannot be debated, performances can. And they allow to assume trends. Usually I am of the other side of that accusation but I am pretty sure, you know exactly what is meant by this point.
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I get the point some of you guys are trying to make. But I just think it's a bit silly.

The league table never lies.
 
stevoc said:
I get the point some of you guys are trying to make. But I just think it's a bit silly.

The league table never lies.
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The table doesn't lie but last season was unique in terms of with fans & without fans. I dont know what it looked like before and after but our form seemed to crumble once fans were back in stadiums while say Liverpool's form picked up, it affected each team differently. Once fans were back we certainly didn't play like the 2nd best team in the league.
 
The Brown Bull said:
The point is obvious. Our 2nd place was a false position.We were not title contenders which is the very least we should be.We are not contenders this year either.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
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I'm sure Ole himself said he was lucky to get 2nd with Liverpools injury crisis. He's also said 2nd is no achievement in the past but we'll ignore that
 
The table doesn’t lie in the fact that it tells you who has collated the most points during a period. The league position wasn’t ‘false’ because it was what it was but the narrative around it was misleading if anything.
 
AFC NimbleThumb said:
The table doesn’t lie in the fact that it tells you who has collated the most points during a period. The league position wasn’t ‘false’ because it was what it was but the narrative around it was misleading if anything.
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Does that mean that Mourinho's team was actually good? That means that Ole's insistence in dismantling it and spend 415m only to finish with less trophies then that previous team was lunacy.
 
devilish said:
Does that mean that Mourinho's team was actually good? That means that Ole's insistence in dismantling it and spend 415m only to finish with less trophies then that previous team was lunacy.
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It means both teams were the 2nd best in the league… yeah. C’mon it’s not hard to understand.

Winning a few cups meant nothing to me from Jose, ole got to loads of finals and the players shat the bed, would you want Ole still here if he had won those cups? No, you wouldn’t. Those 2nd place finishes were the best things those managers achieved with their time here and both deserve what little praise they deserve for that (in reality it’s much harder to finish 2nd in this league than to win a cup comp.)

People claiming Jose’s team had better players are lying blatantly to fit their narrative. Every poster to a man here wanted rid of 90% of those players.
 
RUCK4444 said:
It means both teams were the 2nd best in the league… yeah. C’mon it’s not hard to understand.

Winning a few cups meant nothing to me from Jose, ole got to loads of finals and the players shat the bed, would you want Ole still here if he had won those cups? No, you wouldn’t. Those 2nd place finishes were the best things those managers achieved with their time here and both deserve what little praise they deserve for that (in reality it’s much harder to finish 2nd in this league than to win a cup comp.)

People claiming Jose’s team had better players are lying blatantly to fit their narrative. Every poster to a man here wanted rid of 90% of those players.
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So you are saying that Ole dismantled a decent team and he spent 415m on a pack of bottlers and whose biggest achievement was to reach Mou's team heights minus the trophies?
 
The Brown Bull said:
The point is obvious. Our 2nd place was a false position.We were not title contenders which is the very least we should be.We are not contenders this year either.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.
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Even if it was false, the argument that it was because of empty stadiums is stupid as every club had the same handicap. If you are referring to injury crisis fair enough, but I hope you then appreciate the injury crisis we had in 2019/20.

To your 2nd point, Would you say Chelsea and Pool should be title contenders this year?
 
Ixion said:
The table doesn't lie but last season was unique in terms of with fans & without fans. I dont know what it looked like before and after but our form seemed to crumble once fans were back in stadiums while say Liverpool's form picked up, it affected each team differently. Once fans were back we certainly didn't play like the 2nd best team in the league.
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Are you sure you are remembering correctly mate?

The fans were only allowed back in for the last 2 games of the season in mid may. We drew at home to Fulham and won away to Wolves where we made 11 changes. Liverpool didn't play in front of their home fans all season if I remember.

Our form declined when we confirmed 2nd and got to the final of the EL.
 
Class of 1902 said:
By and large, spent terribly.

£135 million of Maguire and Wan-Bissaka. Are you really telling me, having access to an entire planet of possible players, that was the best we could come up with?
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The least risky/most likely to bed in fast. I agree Maguire isn’t an 80 million player but that’s an organisational flaw more than on the manager. He was the best gettable PL defender and 2 managers wanted him. He was a good signing for 40/50 million whatever he was available for the year before. We just drag our heels until the very last minute and then get rinsed once the world and their dog knows we are desperate. We are a reactive club. That’s the way glazers run us. New contracts for all until it’s 110% obvious the player is useless and we need an upgrade but we now can’t sell the same player because he’s on too much. We all know the Craic at this stage.
 
devilish said:
So you are saying that Ole dismantled a decent team and he spent 415m on a pack of bottlers and whose biggest achievement was to reach Mou's team heights minus the trophies?
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No I didn’t say anything like that. What we’ve seen from this team so far is the limits to which Ole could take it.

I do believe the team lacks character but it’s not really lacking in quality except for a few areas.

My point was more about those 2nd place finishes and the way the Caf likes to pretend it was handed to us on a plate.
 
stevoc said:
Maybe not, but United would have also benefitted from a full Old Trafford for 19 games. Just as every other club would have done better at home with fans present.

I'll say it again United didn't uniquely benefit from empty stadiums.



Yeah they did better in the CL, we did better in the PL, Leicester did better than us both in the FA Cup.



Fair enough mate but as I said I much prefer to deal in facts and reality.
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Yes I prefer facts & reality too.
 
anant said:
Even if it was false, the argument that it was because of empty stadiums is stupid as every club had the same handicap. If you are referring to injury crisis fair enough, but I hope you then appreciate the injury crisis we had in 2019/20.

To your 2nd point, Would you say Chelsea and Pool should be title contenders this year?
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They should.Are they not?
 
stevoc said:
Agreed mate, fair play to you it's much healthier than convincing yourself things are illusions.
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Here’s a fact.We are a long way off being contenders to win the league.A very long way.
I believe most people here accept that.
 
big rons sovereign said:
Nothing false about it. We had a shit start to the season and still managed to finish second. That's quite an achievement all things considered.
This season we shit the bed and ole paid for it with his job.
Credit should be given where it's due, as should criticism. But shitting on finishing second is just plain ridiculous.
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Not what I am doing at all.
 
The Brown Bull said:
Here’s a fact.We are a long way off being contenders to win the league.A very long way.
I believe most people here accept that.
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Yes, we were a ways off first. But was anyone expecting a title challenge last season? Here is a fact: Ole met expectations last season. He didn't this season and was rightly sacked for it. But lets not be revisionist historians and downplay what he did in previous seasons.
 
The Brown Bull said:
Here’s a fact.We are a long way off being contenders to win the league.A very long way.
I believe most people here accept that.
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This season yes I agree, but we have to hope a new manager can turn that around quickly next season.

The Brown Bull said:
But it can mislead.
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I've always been a firm believer that it doesn't, not over 38 games. Over the years I've had to deal with many sore loser Liverpool fans forever convinced that United weren't the best team in the league despite continually winning the bloody thing under SAF.

It's the fairest and most sensible way to decide where every team ranks over a particular year.
 
RUCK4444 said:
No I didn’t say anything like that. What we’ve seen from this team so far is the limits to which Ole could take it.

I do believe the team lacks character but it’s not really lacking in quality except for a few areas.

My point was more about those 2nd place finishes and the way the Caf likes to pretend it was handed to us on a plate.
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Ole fans tend to put 2nd place on some sort of pedestal which is ironic on two counts. First of all Ole ridiculed Mou's second place, secondly he spent 415m on investment to achieve less then Mourinho did. Then they tend to shift on Ole's so called long term project. Which is also kind of ridiculous on two counts as well. First of all Ole had barely given youth talent a regular run. He barely gave this year big name signing and last year big name signing a solid first team run let alone the likes of Hannibal, Diallo and co. Secondly most of our players are either in their late 20s or their 30s (DDG, Varane, Lindelof, Bruno, Maguire, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Telles etc) which means that this team is built to win now not in 2-3 years time. The rest are players who were here prior to Ole's arrival (Shaw, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial etc)

The reality is simple really. Ole dismantled a squad that wasn't good enough only to spent a looping 415m on a team that achieved less then the previous side. Most of the problems we had during Mou's time are still there. The team is still lazy, its still brimming with too many players who shouldn't be here in the first place and it still lack character and commitment. Therefore we can conclude that Ole's three year tenure here was a huge waste of time and money.
 
Ali Dia said:
The least risky/most likely to bed in fast. I agree Maguire isn’t an 80 million player but that’s an organisational flaw more than on the manager. He was the best gettable PL defender and 2 managers wanted him. He was a good signing for 40/50 million whatever he was available for the year before. We just drag our heels until the very last minute and then get rinsed once the world and their dog knows we are desperate. We are a reactive club. That’s the way glazers run us. New contracts for all until it’s 110% obvious the player is useless and we need an upgrade but we now can’t sell the same player because he’s on too much. We all know the Craic at this stage.
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There's no way Leicester would have allowed Maguire to go for 40/50m. Our only course of action was to walk out and find an alternative to him. Would Ole approve that though? He had this knack of not players he didn't like despite the club spending silly money on them. His two last big fee summer signings ended up in that route. Actually I like to call his second transfer window the phantom window as he barely played any of those four players.
 
devilish said:
Ole fans tend to put 2nd place on some sort of pedestal which is ironic on two counts. First of all Ole ridiculed Mou's second place, secondly he spent 415m on investment to achieve less then Mourinho did. Then they tend to shift on Ole's so called long term project. Which is also kind of ridiculous on two counts as well. First of all Ole had barely given youth talent a regular run. He barely gave this year big name signing and last year big name signing a solid first team run let alone the likes of Hannibal, Diallo and co. Secondly most of our players are either in their late 20s or their 30s (DDG, Varane, Lindelof, Bruno, Maguire, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Telles etc) which means that this team is built to win now not in 2-3 years time. The rest are players who were here prior to Ole's arrival (Shaw, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial etc)

The reality is simple really. Ole dismantled a squad that wasn't good enough only to spent a looping 415m on a team that achieved less then the previous side. Most of the problems we had during Mou's time are still there. The team is still lazy, its still brimming with too many players who shouldn't be here in the first place and it still lack character and commitment. Therefore we can conclude that Ole's three year tenure here was a huge waste of time and money.
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What does any of that have to do with the merit of finishing second? Which is the point I was responding to. I included Mourinho in that as well, so it’s not like I’m defending Ole here.

What’s more accurate is posters like to pretend we didn’t deserve second and the squad isn’t better than it was, both a clearly false.

I take it you were happy with Mourinho’s squad when he left?
 
RUCK4444 said:
It means both teams were the 2nd best in the league… yeah. C’mon it’s not hard to understand.

Winning a few cups meant nothing to me from Jose, ole got to loads of finals and the players shat the bed, would you want Ole still here if he had won those cups? No, you wouldn’t. Those 2nd place finishes were the best things those managers achieved with their time here and both deserve what little praise they deserve for that (in reality it’s much harder to finish 2nd in this league than to win a cup comp.)

People claiming Jose’s team had better players are lying blatantly to fit their narrative. Every poster to a man here wanted rid of 90% of those players.
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Come again?
 
RUCK4444 said:
What does any of that have to do with the merit of finishing second? Which is the point I was responding to. I included Mourinho in that as well, so it’s not like I’m defending Ole here.

What’s more accurate is posters like to pretend we didn’t deserve second and the squad isn’t better than it was, both a clearly false.

I take it you were happy with Mourinho’s squad when he left?
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I fail to appreciate this 2nd place mambo jumbo especially one that consist being miles away from 1st place. In 2011-2012 we ended 2nd place to City on goal average yet SAF didn't expected some lap of honour for such achievement. That's because clubs like ours either they win or they lose. There's no consolation prize for us.

To answer your question. I wasn't happy with Mou's squad just as I am not happy with the current side. Its amazing how we were able to spend 415m and we still end up with the same frigging problems ie a bloated side that lack character, leadership and attitude.
 
devilish said:
I fail to appreciate this 2nd place mambo jumbo especially one that consist being miles away from 1st place. In 2011-2012 we ended 2nd place to City on goal average yet SAF didn't expected some lap of honour for such achievement. That's because clubs like ours either they win or they lose. There's no consolation prize for us.

To answer your question. I wasn't happy with Mou's squad just as I am not happy with the current side. Its amazing how we were able to spend 415m and we still end up with the same frigging problems ie a bloated side that lack character, leadership and attitude.
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I’ve stated many times that finishing second means nothing to me, but at the same time people discrediting it as though we didn’t deserve to finish second is absolute nonsense.

The problems you list in your second sentence mainly stem from mismanagement and yes that’s a dig at Ole as much as anybody. It does lack character and on-field leadership but the money spent comes back to the owners, we overspend on every player we buy through poor planning. The players are then seen as ‘awful’ becuase of their over-inflated price tag, a manager like Klopp would turn said players into league winners and that’s the hope for the new permanent manager, that he has a good base to work from (I don’t believe its anywhere near as bad as some are now claiming and it shouldn't be an excuse for Ralf or the next manager.)
 
The Brown Bull said:
They should.Are they not?
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Depends on your criteria. If you say we were in contention till GW26 (before the palace draw in March) last season, then Chelsea is, otherwise they aren't. Because till that GW, we had a gap of 8 points with City - same as what City are having on Chelsea right now
 
devilish said:
There's no way Leicester would have allowed Maguire to go for 40/50m. Our only course of action was to walk out and find an alternative to him. Would Ole approve that though? He had this knack of not players he didn't like despite the club spending silly money on them. His two last big fee summer signings ended up in that route. Actually I like to call his second transfer window the phantom window as he barely played any of those four players.
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Maguire was widely reported as being available for 60 million in 2018 and we said it was too much. 60 would have been fine and not automatically making him our captain. Might have even been a really clever deal. But like the stadium and the right wing and the DOF and the midfield and all the shitty contracts and giving managers with serous doubts hanging over them long term deals only to sack them mere months later- that’s just how we roll. We never press the button until the shit has already hit the fan. That’s on the glazers not the managers.
 
RUCK4444 said:
I’ve stated many times that finishing second means nothing to me, but at the same time people discrediting it as though we didn’t deserve to finish second is absolute nonsense.

The problems you list in your second sentence mainly stem from mismanagement and yes that’s a dig at Ole as much as anybody. It does lack character and on-field leadership but the money spent comes back to the owners, we overspend on every player we buy through poor planning. The players are then seen as ‘awful’ becuase of their over-inflated price tag, a manager like Klopp would turn said players into league winners and that’s the hope for the new permanent manager, that he has a good base to work from (I don’t believe its anywhere near as bad as some are now claiming and it shouldn't be an excuse for Ralf or the next manager.)
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Then we're mostly on the same page. However I beg to differ (or I want to clarify) on this point. You can have the best negotiation team in the world but if the manager asks for let's say Maguire then there's no way we could get him on a realistic fee. Which is why City who were also interested in Harry walked out of that ridiculous deal. Of course one can counter to that by saying that the club need to be careful not to choose a manager whose football knowledge is limited to few known names.
 
devilish said:
Ole fans tend to put 2nd place on some sort of pedestal which is ironic on two counts. First of all Ole ridiculed Mou's second place, secondly he spent 415m on investment to achieve less then Mourinho did. Then they tend to shift on Ole's so called long term project. Which is also kind of ridiculous on two counts as well. First of all Ole had barely given youth talent a regular run. He barely gave this year big name signing and last year big name signing a solid first team run let alone the likes of Hannibal, Diallo and co. Secondly most of our players are either in their late 20s or their 30s (DDG, Varane, Lindelof, Bruno, Maguire, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Telles etc) which means that this team is built to win now not in 2-3 years time. The rest are players who were here prior to Ole's arrival (Shaw, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial etc)

The reality is simple really. Ole dismantled a squad that wasn't good enough only to spent a looping 415m on a team that achieved less then the previous side. Most of the problems we had during Mou's time are still there. The team is still lazy, its still brimming with too many players who shouldn't be here in the first place and it still lack character and commitment. Therefore we can conclude that Ole's three year tenure here was a huge waste of time and money.
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Did he though?

Are there quotes to that effect?
 
devilish said:
Ole fans tend to put 2nd place on some sort of pedestal which is ironic on two counts. First of all Ole ridiculed Mou's second place, secondly he spent 415m on investment to achieve less then Mourinho did. Then they tend to shift on Ole's so called long term project. Which is also kind of ridiculous on two counts as well. First of all Ole had barely given youth talent a regular run. He barely gave this year big name signing and last year big name signing a solid first team run let alone the likes of Hannibal, Diallo and co. Secondly most of our players are either in their late 20s or their 30s (DDG, Varane, Lindelof, Bruno, Maguire, Fred, Ronaldo, Cavani, Matic, Telles etc) which means that this team is built to win now not in 2-3 years time. The rest are players who were here prior to Ole's arrival (Shaw, Rashford, Greenwood, Martial etc)

The reality is simple really. Ole dismantled a squad that wasn't good enough only to spent a looping 415m on a team that achieved less then the previous side. Most of the problems we had during Mou's time are still there. The team is still lazy, its still brimming with too many players who shouldn't be here in the first place and it still lack character and commitment. Therefore we can conclude that Ole's three year tenure here was a huge waste of time and money.
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Very good post.
 
devilish said:
Then we're mostly on the same page. However I beg to differ (or I want to clarify) on this point. You can have the best negotiation team in the world but if the manager asks for let's say Maguire then there's no way we could get him on a realistic fee. Which is why City who were also interested in Harry walked out of that ridiculous deal. Of course one can counter to that by saying that the club need to be careful not to choose a manager whose football knowledge is limited to few known names.
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The problem there is that United let every manager (not just Ole) have total control, something you don’t find at other clubs.

Other clubs like City saw Harry and thought they would go in for him but set themselves a limit, they have DOF’s at other clubs that put structure in place. Our ‘structure’ has been nothing but a wish list from the current manager and Ed who panic buys at any cost.

It’s cost us a lot more than just Ole’s time here, look how dreadful LVG’s signings were as an example.
 
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