Damage done by previous regime

[Oranges038]

That's true of most players who are the creative focal point of their teams. Is he not top in chance creation in the PL this sason?

If you think every player including Bruno should make it their priority to retain possession then you must have loved the LVG days.

Nah, I hated every minute of it. What i mean by him being uncomfortable in possession is that he always just goes for the killer ball, regardless of the situation.

If he was comfortable on the ball then he'd be less inclined to rush all his passes and just take a little bit more time to pick the right pass.

 

[stevoc]

Nah, I hated every minute of it. What i mean by him being uncomfortable in possession is that he always just goes for the killer ball, regardless of the situation.

If he was comfortable on the ball then he'd be less inclined to rush all his passes and just take a little bit more time to pick the right pass.

That's been the overwhelming positive in his game since he came to the club and has lead to a shit tonne of goals/chances. If anything we have too many players too afraid of making forward passes into the final 3rd.

 

[Ixion]

There's nothing to suggest that a squad which finished second the preceding season and added Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo might fancy improving by one position in the league?

Not when Chelsea winning the CL and Liverpool smashing us 4-2 at OT at the end of last season showed we were clearly not the 2nd best team in the league, no. And we were never in the title race, we were 15 points off City for most of it, there was no real challenge so there is a lot more ground to make up than just "one position". This team has never been in an actual title race, we don't know how they'd handle it at all so patting them on the back as good enough to win the league is nonsense. No one says Ole took over a squad good enough to win the league despite it finishing 2nd with 81 points the season before.

 

[stevoc]

Not when Chelsea winning the CL and Liverpool smashing us 4-2 at OT at the end of last season showed we were clearly not the 2nd best team in the league, no. And we were never in the title race, we were 15 points off City for most of it, there was no real challenge so there is a lot more ground to make up than just "one position". This team has never been in an actual title race, we don't know how they'd handle it at all so patting them on the back as good enough to win the league is nonsense. No one says Ole took over a squad good enough to win the league despite it finishing 2nd with 81 points the season before.

Well I wouldn't have based my opinion that we might not be the 2nd best team in the league on those two events to be honest.

Chelsea won the CL back in 2012 when we came 2nd, we won the league a year later.

Liverpool beat us 4-1 at OT in 2009 we won the league that year.

 

[Ixion]

Well I wouldn't have based my opinion that we might not be the 2nd best team in the league on those two events to be honest.

Chelsea won the CL back in 2012 when we came 2nd, we won the league a year later.

Liverpool beat us 4-1 at OT in 2009 we won the league that year.

Our performance in the Europa League Final compared to Chelsea in the CL clearly showed they were a better side than us

 

[romufc]

- Ole spent 180m in a defence who couldn't stop leaking goals under him. Ole also saddled us with AWB and Maguire. He basically dictated our present and future policy in defence as there's no way anyone can put an 80m signing on the bench.
- Ole hoarded a ridiculously amount of attacking players. Pogba and Lingard will now leave on free which means a big hit on the new manager's transfer budget while Martial and VDB will leave on peanuts.
- Ole kept and signed many players who are quite frankly no where near to United level. I am referring to the likes of matey Jones, matey Mata, matey Matic, matey McShane and matey Heaton.
- Ole left behind a very inexperienced coaching staff all of whom signing new contracts. The only experienced coach out of the lot isn't anywhere near the training pitch
- Ole couldn't be bothered adding a DM to this team which means that our engine room is basically managed by McFred. These players are mid table level at best.
- Ole left a culture were its normal that players go to Dubai when they get injured, were the manager will feck off to a holiday in the middle of a crisis and were its normal to be one of the laziest team in the EPL as long as everyone is smiling and is happy.

1. He dictated the present future? Why can't anyone put a £80m defender on the bench? Is it illegal? Because a £50m RB is on the bench and Ole himself put a £90m midfielder on the bench....
2. So its Ole's fault some players have no value? He dictates value?
3. So what you wanted Ole to get rid of everyone? How many games did Jones, Mata and them get? I see Bruno, Sancho, VDB, Varane, Ronaldo, Telles are not good enough as Manutd standard?

 

[Oranges038]

That's been the overwhelming positive in his game since he came to the club and has lead to a shit tonne of goals/chances. If anything we have too many players too afraid of making forward passes into the final 3rd.

It's percentages football, ping enough balls in there and some of them are bound to come off.

Would you be happy if Maguie and Lindelof pinged every ball over the top if it resulted in a goal chance a few times a game?

He needs to improve his decision making, he's become predictable and his effectiveness has decreased. What he needs to do, especially against teams like Norwich is pick the right/better passes to hold the ball and sustain attacks, to build and maintain pressure. Not just give them back the ball at every opportunity and let them have a easy out. When you consider how badly ineffective the front press is then this makes even less sense.

A big problem with this Utd team and why they find themselves under pressure in games against weaker teams is that the central players I mentioned before cannot keep the ball for anymore than a few passes before they find themselves under pressure and the wrong pass or a bad one is played.

There are times when keeping it simple is the best option, these guys seem to be incapable of doing that.

 

[Fingeredmouse]

Not when Chelsea winning the CL and Liverpool smashing us 4-2 at OT at the end of last season showed we were clearly not the 2nd best team in the league, no. And we were never in the title race, we were 15 points off City for most of it, there was no real challenge so there is a lot more ground to make up than just "one position". This team has never been in an actual title race, we don't know how they'd handle it at all so patting them on the back as good enough to win the league is nonsense. No one says Ole took over a squad good enough to win the league despite it finishing 2nd with 81 points the season before.

Fair enough. I think the squad should be challenging for the league and if I didn't, I wouldn't have wanted a manager change because I would have considered us to be broadly meeting expectations.

 

[stevoc]

Our performance in the Europa League Final compared to Chelsea in the CL clearly showed they were a better side than us

I do think Chelsea are a better side than us right now, because we're in a bit of a mess. But I'd personally never make judgements on how good teams are in relation to each other based on individual matches. We beat City about a month before Chelsea did in the CL final after all.

 

[stevoc]

It's percentages football, ping enough balls in there and some of them are bound to come off.

Let's not kid ourselves everything in football, especially modern football is about percentages mate.

Would you be happy if Maguie and Lindelof pinged every ball over the top if it resulted in a goal chance a few times a game?

Yes because that's exactly what I was saying.

In any team you main playmaker will or should be making more risky passes than your centrebacks.

 

[devilish]

1. He dictated the present future? Why can't anyone put a £80m defender on the bench? Is it illegal? Because a £50m RB is on the bench and Ole himself put a £90m midfielder on the bench....
2. So its Ole's fault some players have no value? He dictates value?
3. So what you wanted Ole to get rid of everyone? How many games did Jones, Mata and them get? I see Bruno, Sancho, VDB, Varane, Ronaldo, Telles are not good enough as Manutd standard?

1. Doing so would make the club look silly and would add pressure on the new manager. No one can treat the most expensive defender in the world as a reserve

2. Its his fault if he signed them or had given them contact extensions

3. Then why were they given contract extension?

 

[Idxomer]

Fair enough. I think the squad should be challenging for the league and if I didn't, I wouldn't have wanted a manager change because I would have considered us to be broadly meeting expectations.

We were in a complete free-fall, we weren't even meeting the lowest of expectations.

Look at our last 30 games under Ole and see how they went, see that thread for reference.

 

[romufc]

1. Doing so would make the club look silly and would add pressure on the new manager. No one can treat the most expensive defender in the world as a reserve

2. Its his fault if he signed them or had given them contact extensions

3. Then why were they given contract extension?

Did the club look silly when Pogba was dropped? Well, Chelsea treat the most expensive goal keeper as reserve, no one says a word. So yes, you can.

So its his fault that we signed Ronaldo, bruno, Sancho, Donny, Varane? Cause they so shit?

The club also decide that, its not solely on Ole. The Jones contract was agreed well before Ole, unless you think contracts are negotiated and signed within a month.

 

[devilish]

I wonder how much of this particular point was more a board decision to save funds in the transfer market. It was obvious to many these players needed to be shown the exit door.

A-I doubt that the club forced Ole to sign comrade Mcshane and Heaton.

B- the forward department was already overstocked. We really had no need to keep comrade Mata. May I remind you that during Ole times they were persistent rumours that comrades Mata Grant and Matic would move in as coaches in 6 months time

C- Comrades Mata, Mcshane, Heaton, Grant and Jones has as much value as a packet of crisps, they are championship level at best and are strengthening (excuse the pun) positions that are very well stocked

So your argument can only be applied to Matic

 

[devilish]

Did the club look silly when Pogba was dropped? Well, Chelsea treat the most expensive goal keeper as reserve, no one says a word. So yes, you can.

So its his fault that we signed Ronaldo, bruno, Sancho, Donny, Varane? Cause they so shit?

The club also decide that, its not solely on Ole. The Jones contract was agreed well before Ole, unless you think contracts are negotiated and signed within a month.

Was Pogba really dropped though? Since when Bruno and Ronaldo are shit? The former singlehandedly carried Ole in his first year and Ronaldo carried us into the CL. The rest were either injured or Ole couldn't be bothered playing them after spending tens of millions on them

Oh I don't blame this mess on just Ole. It's crazy that we gave an amateur manager 415m to invest in the team especially one who can't be bothered training the team himself and would go on holiday in the middle of a crisis.

 

[romufc]

Was Pogba really dropped though? Since when Bruno and Ronaldo are shit? The former singlehandedly carried Ole in his first year and Ronaldo carried us into the CL. The rest were either injured or Ole couldn't be bothered playing them after spending tens of millions on them

Oh I don't blame this mess on just Ole. It's crazy that we gave an amateur manager 415m to invest in the team especially one who can't be bothered training the team himself and would go on holiday in the middle of a crisis.

You're the one crying about his signings.

The players we have rest on their laurels and need a big shake up, the so called "top players" need to be dropped until they start showing something.

 

[Siezard]

Ole has left the strongest squad for the next manager, among all managers who left.

Let's face it. Some of you will did what Ole has done. Juan Mata is skilful so you will give him a new contract.

Pogba is regarded as a virus and you will hesitate to give him a contract, until it's too late and he is leaving on a free, just like Herrera and Romero. Good thing is this happened to almost every club anyway.

 

[sglowrider]

Yup. Whispering all around. Until we dont get rid of all of them we wont get out of this situation.

Off with their vocal cords off!!!

 

[Tincanalley]

He was also second in assists. Which means he considerably outscored every striker in the league, except Harry Kane. As well as being named player of the month several times. You wouldn't think there'd be much room for debate concerning whether that was a great season or not. But there will be people who are prepared to neg on absolutely anyone, no matter how absurd.

Good post in another utter train crash of a thread. Too many opinionated feckwits in Caf - beyond clueless. This bullet point job…. Oh do share your impeccable football judgement with us all…. Yes, a list, great idea!! What’s wrong with this player, that player, etc etc.

Clearly I need to get more proactive in ignoring people. Go back to your sugary treats, try to reduce screen time. Consider attending a game. With a decent cohort of honourable exceptions (present company included), you could lose the will to live while perusing the spoutings some of the resident keyboard warriors.

 

[devilish]

You're the one crying about his signings.

The players we have rest on their laurels and need a big shake up, the so called "top players" need to be dropped until they start showing something.

You're confusing me now. I said

- Ole spent 180m in a defence who couldn't stop leaking goals under him. Ole also saddled us with AWB and Maguire. He basically dictated our present and future policy in defence as there's no way anyone can put an 80m signing on the bench.
- Ole hoarded a ridiculously amount of attacking players. Pogba and Lingard will now leave on free which means a big hit on the new manager's transfer budget while Martial and VDB will leave on peanuts.
- Ole kept and signed many players who are quite frankly no where near to United level. I am referring to the likes of matey Jones, matey Mata, matey Matic, matey McShane and matey Heaton.
- Ole left behind a very inexperienced coaching staff all of whom signing new contracts. The only experienced coach out of the lot isn't anywhere near the training pitch
- Ole couldn't be bothered adding a DM to this team which means that our engine room is basically managed by McFred. These players are mid table level at best.
- Ole left a culture were its normal that players go to Dubai when they get injured, were the manager will feck off to a holiday in the middle of a crisis and were its normal to be one of the laziest team in the EPL as long as everyone is smiling and is happy.

I never mentioned Ronaldo, Varane or Bruno.

 

[lex talionis]

How the team performs collectively is on the manager, not the playing staff.

the squad Ole left is much much better than any we have had since SAF left and arguably stronger than the team SAF last won a title with.

A new manager needs time to settle and get his own players, but if RR can’t get a tune out of this squad that’s on him.

I've been wondering how much better the squad is now than it was under Jose. But which "now" do we take? The squad as it stands now, which shambolically got destroyed by Watford, or the squad on the last day of Ole's season, when he got us up to second in the league and a EL final? Obviously, the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho significantly strengthened the squad, but it's obviously the case that we regressed massively in Ole's few months with United.

Let's compare Jose's final XI with Ole's XI before this shambolic season started. (Going off memory here.)

De Gea v Dea Gea. Not much to say here, except that De Gea performed significantly better during Ole's dying embers.
Valencia v Wan-Bissaka. I'll give Wan-Bissaka the edge.
Smalling v McGuire. I'll give McGuire the slight edge, as McGuire really has underperformed relative to expectations and at times has been shambolic.
Blind v Lindelof. A contrarian view, but I'm giving Blind the edge here, although I do like Lindelof.
Shaw v Shaw. The Shaw under Ole last season was majestic, no question about it.
Herrera v McTominay. Not even a close call.
Matic v Matic. The Matic today is inferior to the Matic we acquired, but that's certainly not the previous regime's fault.
Fellaini v Fred. A hard call, as both were/have been horrific for most of their time with United. I'll go with Fred, but the case for Fellaini is not daft. (Don't worry, I've always been anti-MF.)
Pogba v Pogba. A wash here. Pogba has been woeful for long stretches under both regimes.
Rashford v Rashford. Call this a wash, as neither manager got the best of out of Rashford.
Ibrahimovic v Ronaldo. We're talking about the strikers as we had/have them, not at their peaks. I'd actually call this one a wash, though it's still early days for Ronaldo.

I'm sure I've forgotten some key names and I definitely didn't mention some flops like Darmian (who rarely played it seems to me, due to his shitness), but these are close approximations of the best regular XIs under both Jose and Ole.

If I'm right about that (one might ask about Lukaku, for example), it's not obviously the case that the Ole XI would even beat the Jose XI, let alone be "light years" better than it. Maybe better, but definitely not by much. The light year difference are the additions of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and we can assume they'll ever hit top gear together I do agree it's a better squad on paper. But the point of this thread is that the previous regime did not shower itself in glory even when it was handed three of the most massive names in European football over the last three seasons. We regressed despite the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and if we're going to be honest about it we didn't look all that great last season. And we were undone by a mediocre Villareal side in the cup final of a competition we were relegated to.

I'm no fan of Jose and was thrilled to see him sacked. But as we look back on what took place over the last three seasons, the more we look at it, the worse it looks. Concerns about the previous regime are warranted. The point in reflecting on this is to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.

 

[Bebestation]

Love you Ole

Hopefully Rangnick can improve this group of players you help left behind and help us choose the right manager to get us back going

 

[Oranges038]

Let's not kid ourselves everything in football, especially modern football is about percentages mate.



Yes because that's exactly what I was saying.

In any team you main playmaker will or should be making more risky passes than your centrebacks.

Of course he should.

But, like I said he's become very predictable and as a result less effective.

He should be playing those risky passes, but not pretty much every time he gets the ball. He could hit same numbers as he has by playing smarter rather than going for the killer ball all the time.

 

[Amir]

Ole has left the strongest squad for the next manager, among all managers who left.

He left a squad of good players, no doubt. Whether it's a good squad remains to be seen. Football is not just about having good players, but fitting the right players with the right style. I'm not sure we've got the right mix.

 

[anant]

I've been wondering how much better the squad is now than it was under Jose. But which "now" do we take? The squad as it stands now, which shambolically got destroyed by Watford, or the squad on the last day of Ole's season, when he got us up to second in the league and a EL final? Obviously, the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho significantly strengthened the squad, but it's obviously the case that we regressed massively in Ole's few months with United.

Let's compare Jose's final XI with Ole's XI before this shambolic season started. (Going off memory here.)

De Gea v Dea Gea. Not much to say here, except that De Gea performed significantly better during Ole's dying embers.
Valencia v Wan-Bissaka. I'll give Wan-Bissaka the edge.
Smalling v McGuire. I'll give McGuire the slight edge, as McGuire really has underperformed relative to expectations and at times has been shambolic.
Blind v Lindelof. A contrarian view, but I'm giving Blind the edge here, although I do like Lindelof.
Shaw v Shaw. The Shaw under Ole last season was majestic, no question about it.
Herrera v McTominay. Not even a close call.
Matic v Matic. The Matic today is inferior to the Matic we acquired, but that's certainly not the previous regime's fault.
Fellaini v Fred. A hard call, as both were/have been horrific for most of their time with United. I'll go with Fred, but the case for Fellaini is not daft. (Don't worry, I've always been anti-MF.)
Pogba v Pogba. A wash here. Pogba has been woeful for long stretches under both regimes.
Rashford v Rashford. Call this a wash, as neither manager got the best of out of Rashford.
Ibrahimovic v Ronaldo. We're talking about the strikers as we had/have them, not at their peaks. I'd actually call this one a wash, though it's still early days for Ronaldo.

I'm sure I've forgotten some key names and I definitely didn't mention some flops like Darmian (who rarely played it seems to me, due to his shitness), but these are close approximations of the best regular XIs under both Jose and Ole.

If I'm right about that (one might ask about Lukaku, for example), it's not obviously the case that the Ole XI would even beat the Jose XI, let alone be "light years" better than it. Maybe better, but definitely not by much. The light year difference are the additions of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and we can assume they'll ever hit top gear together I do agree it's a better squad on paper. But the point of this thread is that the previous regime did not shower itself in glory even when it was handed three of the most massive names in European football over the last three seasons. We regressed despite the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and if we're going to be honest about it we didn't look all that great last season. And we were undone by a mediocre Villareal side in the cup final of a competition we were relegated to.

I'm no fan of Jose and was thrilled to see him sacked. But as we look back on what took place over the last three seasons, the more we look at it, the worse it looks. Concerns about the previous regime are warranted. The point in reflecting on this is to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.

Blind wasn't there in the side that Mou left behind, neither was Zlatan. Lindelof now is much better than Lindelof that was under Mou. Why are we including Matic for Ole- Shouldn't it be Bruno and there's no competition there. Similarly, even though Rashford hasn't had the best 3-4 months, Rashford under Ole was way better than under Mou - 2 back to back seasons with 20+ goals. Similarly, Pogba wasn't playing under Mou. You'd have to have Lingard or Alexis, both who are worse than Pogba.

Lukaku was mostly leading the lien but he was missing a sitter every game, not to say that Ron has been faultless as well

 

[stevoc]

Of course he should.

But, like I said he's become very predictable and as a result less effective.

He should be playing those risky passes, but not pretty much every time he gets the ball. He could hit same numbers as he has by playing smarter rather than going for the killer ball all the time.

So he'll become less predictable and more effective at creating by playing more safe passes?

Not sure I agree but who knows.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Ole has left the strongest squad for the next manager, among all managers who left.

Let's face it. Some of you will did what Ole has done. Juan Mata is skilful so you will give him a new contract.

Pogba is regarded as a virus and you will hesitate to give him a contract, until it's too late and he is leaving on a free, just like Herrera and Romero. Good thing is this happened to almost every club anyway.

It means nothing. I'm tired of hearing that Solskjaer left a strong squad. Football is a team sport and he left behind a terrible team.

 

[lex talionis]

Blind wasn't there in the side that Mou left behind, neither was Zlatan. Lindelof now is much better than Lindelof that was under Mou. Why are we including Matic for Ole- Shouldn't it be Bruno and there's no competition there. Similarly, even though Rashford hasn't had the best 3-4 months, Rashford under Ole was way better than under Mou - 2 back to back seasons with 30+ goals. Similarly, Pogba wasn't playing under Mou. You'd have to have Lingard or Alexis, both who are worse than Pogba.

Lukaku was mostly leading the lien but he was missing a sitter every game, not to say that Ron has been faultless as well

Fair enough. I suspected my recollection was a bit off. Fukk me how could I forget about Bruno?

Are you saying that Rashford scored 30+ goals in back to back seasons? Wow! I would never have guessed that.

My overall response is that Jose had us playing ugly football but somehow we won a couple of trophies. It was a devil's bargain I wouldn't make again, but that is what happened. Under Ole, we saw better individual performances but our team play was poor and of course we won no trophies. Both Jose and Ole supervised massive deterioration in our play at the beginning of their last season, so what I thought would be fair would be to compare their last full seasons both in terms of performance and results.

Because I don't have the time to look it all up I just went to wiki to review the 17-18 season under Jose:

2017–18 season
See also: 2017–18 Manchester United F.C. season​

Mourinho during a UEFA Champions League pre-match press conference with United in September 2017

Mourinho strengthened his side further in the summer of 2017, with the signings of Belgian striker Romelu Lukaku, defender Victor Lindelöf, and midfielder Nemanja Matić.[154] United made a strong start to the season before a difficult winter schedule widened the gap between them and city rivals Manchester City.[155]

Mourinho was criticised for Manchester United's Champions League exit to Sevilla at the last-sixteen stage, which resulted in a surprise twelve minute rant from Mourinho defending his United career.[156]

Manchester United finished second in the table after a 1–0 home defeat to West Bromwich Albion, finishing nineteen points behind Manchester City.[157] United also lost the 2018 FA Cup Final to Mourinho's former club Chelsea after an Eden Hazard penalty sealed a 1–0 win for the Blues.[158]​

Under Jose we finished second in the league that season, as we did under Ole in his last full season. We made it out of the group stage in the CL under Jose, which we were unable to under Ole in his last season despite a pretty weak group. We lost to Chelsea in the FA Cup final under Jose, but we Leicester City dropped us in the QF.

Ole improved the roster of players, without question. Ronaldo...even McGuire. But how much of that improvement in the quality of the players can we attribute to Ole? Woodward brought in the players and while the manager has a role in those decisions it's pretty clear that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho didn't come to United because of Ole. Donny Van De Beek came here arguably because of Ole, but Ole refused to give him a proper chance. And how many youth players did Ole give a real chance to? Not many. We spent 37m on Diallo and he's barely seen any action.

But whereas Jose had slightly poorer players over all (McGuire is vastly overrated) and the product on the pitch was absolutely unbearable to watch (and Jose is a miserable shitbag, whereas Ole is always cheerful), I don't think it's deniable that Jose got more out of what he had than Ole from what he had. I supported Jose's sacking, but there is a case to be made that he actually did a better job overall than Ole, who left what I think most here would describe as a more talented squad on paper in utter shambles, with no trophies to show for his work and a season already gone to the dogs in November. Both Jose and Ole left the squad in a state of dysfunction and although I'm sure there's an example to prove my point wrong, I don't recall a club of Watford's stature utterly destroying us under Jose. Liverpool destroyed us in that 3-1 defeat, but Liverpool also destroyed us 5-0 under Ole.

 

[anant]

Fair enough. I suspected my recollection was a bit off. Fukk me how could I forget about Bruno?

Are you saying that Rashford scored 30+ goals in back to back seasons? Wow! I would never have guessed that.

My overall response is that Jose had us playing ugly football but somehow we won a couple of trophies. It was a devil's bargain I wouldn't make again, but that is what happened. Under Ole, we saw better individual performances but our team play was poor and of course we won no trophies. Both Jose and Ole supervised massive deterioration in our play at the beginning of their last season, so what I thought would be fair would be to compare their last full seasons both in terms of performance and results.

Because I don't have the time to look it all up I just went to wiki to review the 17-18 season under Jose:

2017–18 season
See also: 2017–18 Manchester United F.C. season​

Mourinho during a UEFA Champions League pre-match press conference with United in September 2017

Mourinho strengthened his side further in the summer of 2017, with the signings of Belgian striker Romelu Lukaku, defender Victor Lindelöf, and midfielder Nemanja Matić.[154] United made a strong start to the season before a difficult winter schedule widened the gap between them and city rivals Manchester City.[155]

Mourinho was criticised for Manchester United's Champions League exit to Sevilla at the last-sixteen stage, which resulted in a surprise twelve minute rant from Mourinho defending his United career.[156]

Manchester United finished second in the table after a 1–0 home defeat to West Bromwich Albion, finishing nineteen points behind Manchester City.[157] United also lost the 2018 FA Cup Final to Mourinho's former club Chelsea after an Eden Hazard penalty sealed a 1–0 win for the Blues.[158]​

Under Jose we finished second in the league that season, as we did under Ole in his last full season. We made it out of the group stage in the CL under Jose, which we were unable to under Ole in his last season despite a pretty weak group. We lost to Chelsea in the FA Cup final under Jose, but we Leicester City dropped us in the QF.

Ole improved the roster of players, without question. Ronaldo...even McGuire. But how much of that improvement in the quality of the players can we attribute to Ole? Woodward brought in the players and while the manager has a role in those decisions it's pretty clear that Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho didn't come to United because of Ole. Donny Van De Beek came here arguably because of Ole, but Ole refused to give him a proper chance. And how many youth players did Ole give a real chance to? Not many. We spent 37m on Diallo and he's barely seen any action.

But whereas Jose had slightly poorer players over all (McGuire is vastly overrated) and the product on the pitch was absolutely unbearable to watch (and Jose is a miserable shitbag, whereas Ole is always cheerful), I don't think it's deniable that Jose got more out of what he had than Ole from what he had. I supported Jose's sacking, but there is a case to be made that he actually did a better job overall than Ole, who left what I think most here would describe as a more talented squad on paper in utter shambles, with no trophies to show for his work and a season already gone to the dogs in November. Both Jose and Ole left the squad in a state of dysfunction and although I'm sure there's an example to prove my point wrong, I don't recall a club of Watford's stature utterly destroying us under Jose. Liverpool destroyed us in that 3-1 defeat, but Liverpool also destroyed us 5-0 under Ole.

Firstly, an apology for the typo. It was 20+ goals for Rashy. But still the only two seasons where he's managed that. If we look at G+A, then it is 30+.

I'm not going to argue on the trophies bit. I dont really care about LC, FA Cup or EL. Win there doesn't mean progress, and loss isnt the end of the world. But I know people look at it differently so I'll let it be.

Now coming to the main part of the argument, of course we deteriorated pretty quick and we were in a nose dive and obviously he had to go, but where I disagree is the casual overlooking of the transfers. Sure, he spent 400m and bought class players, but why is that held against him?! FOr some reason, because Mou's transfers wee flops, we rate his time higher. Both spent 400m give or take, and Mou had a higher net spend. The side Mou left had a higher average age as well

Now, you can say Ole was backed and he was allowed to buy Maguire's and Sancho's of the world. But Mou had similar money, and he chose to splurge on Pogba and Lukaku and Matic. One wasn't backed more than the other. Both were backed equally. So, saying Jose got more out of that side isn't really something to be proud of, and that's the main reason why I don't agree with "Give Mou this squad and he'd win xyz" - Mou had the money to build a side like this, but he failed at the 1st stage itself of squad building.

I'm not saying what Ole has left behind is perfect - the side is bloated and we lack a DM and a RB, but at the very least it's one good transfer window away from being a really good side. Under Mou, everyone knew that the manager who'll replace Mou will not just have to replace the flops, but also the ageing players. Right now, we have ready made solution in Greenwood to replace Cavani/Ronaldo - and I know some people will call luck, but on the flip side you could say that signing older players meant that Greenwood's transition to be our #9 was smooth.

And irrespective, whenever you're analyzing the side of a manager who's been sacked, you'd always point to a position saying, "That position wasn't addressed by him" - for Mou it was CB, for Ole DM, etc. Hell, hypothetically, if Pep gets sacked tomorrow, I'm pretty sure people will say "He didn't address #9 for 2 years so he was rightfully sacked". Football is a hindsight sport, and unless you win everything, you'll always have something to complain about

 

[Oranges038]

So he'll become less predictable and more effective at creating by playing more safe passes?

Not sure I agree but who knows.

I wouldn't want him to cut it out completely. It's his game and it's an important part of who he is as a player.

He needs to work on improving his positoning and timing. He's running too far forward this season, he leaves the central area, the area where he is most effective too much. He finds himself out on the wing or playing almost like a second striker. That is not his game.

I think he'd be more effective if he was less rash on the ball and worked on getting in better positions to create and play those risky passes, rather than running all over the place and trying the killer pass from where ever he happens to find himself.

 

[McTerminator]

We might not have challenged City and Liverpool but if you really think we didn't play better football under ole as compared to Mourinho, something is wrong ..
How many times did we hit 5 goals..? We also hit 9 goals in a game..We just didn't win the Europa..and we choked in the crucial minutes in the europa twice and CL ..but we played good football...

I think you misunderstand me. I was responding to a poster claiming Ole left the squad in a mess.

That is simply not true. If RR cannot get a tune out of this squad that is his fault alone. If Ole a supposed P.E teacher could get a decent tune out of them (which he did, just not consistently enough to keep his job) then the supposed godfather of the gegenpress should have no issues.

On this basis i think we agree with one another?

 

[McTerminator]

I've been wondering how much better the squad is now than it was under Jose. But which "now" do we take? The squad as it stands now, which shambolically got destroyed by Watford, or the squad on the last day of Ole's season, when he got us up to second in the league and a EL final? Obviously, the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho significantly strengthened the squad, but it's obviously the case that we regressed massively in Ole's few months with United.

Let's compare Jose's final XI with Ole's XI before this shambolic season started. (Going off memory here.)

De Gea v Dea Gea. Not much to say here, except that De Gea performed significantly better during Ole's dying embers.
Valencia v Wan-Bissaka. I'll give Wan-Bissaka the edge.
Smalling v McGuire. I'll give McGuire the slight edge, as McGuire really has underperformed relative to expectations and at times has been shambolic.
Blind v Lindelof. A contrarian view, but I'm giving Blind the edge here, although I do like Lindelof.
Shaw v Shaw. The Shaw under Ole last season was majestic, no question about it.
Herrera v McTominay. Not even a close call.
Matic v Matic. The Matic today is inferior to the Matic we acquired, but that's certainly not the previous regime's fault.
Fellaini v Fred. A hard call, as both were/have been horrific for most of their time with United. I'll go with Fred, but the case for Fellaini is not daft. (Don't worry, I've always been anti-MF.)
Pogba v Pogba. A wash here. Pogba has been woeful for long stretches under both regimes.
Rashford v Rashford. Call this a wash, as neither manager got the best of out of Rashford.
Ibrahimovic v Ronaldo. We're talking about the strikers as we had/have them, not at their peaks. I'd actually call this one a wash, though it's still early days for Ronaldo.

I'm sure I've forgotten some key names and I definitely didn't mention some flops like Darmian (who rarely played it seems to me, due to his shitness), but these are close approximations of the best regular XIs under both Jose and Ole.

If I'm right about that (one might ask about Lukaku, for example), it's not obviously the case that the Ole XI would even beat the Jose XI, let alone be "light years" better than it. Maybe better, but definitely not by much. The light year difference are the additions of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and we can assume they'll ever hit top gear together I do agree it's a better squad on paper. But the point of this thread is that the previous regime did not shower itself in glory even when it was handed three of the most massive names in European football over the last three seasons. We regressed despite the addition of Ronaldo, Varane and Sancho and if we're going to be honest about it we didn't look all that great last season. And we were undone by a mediocre Villareal side in the cup final of a competition we were relegated to.

I'm no fan of Jose and was thrilled to see him sacked. But as we look back on what took place over the last three seasons, the more we look at it, the worse it looks. Concerns about the previous regime are warranted. The point in reflecting on this is to ensure we don't make the same mistakes again.

I don’t really disagree with anything you said, but as you allude to yourself, your comparison stops short.

The squad RR inherited is much better in my opinion than the squad Ole inherited.

The fact that the starting 11 shades towards Ole’s despite the fact that hehas not gotten the best of them is supportive of this and more so the fact that Varane and Sancho aren’t mentioned. It also occurs to me you didn’t mention Bruno who is a huge improvement on anything we had before him when used correctly.

Perhaps the terminology “light years” is a little over embellished, but the fact remains that the squad is far improved and the main errors made by Ole were in his lack of coaching expertise and his complete devotion to the mcfred duo.

 

[Ramshock]

It's more than evident now.
1. Players are not anywhere near as fit as required to press effectively for 60 let alone 90 mins.
2. Lack of discipline from some players, to adhere to tactics.
3. Recruitment done in defence the past years exposed horribly. AWB, maguire nowhere near the quality required. Which is why we are having to fall back on second string players.

Can something actually be coached into these players given they have been effectively on a holiday for the past 3 years or is it too much to ask from an interim manager?

Jesus fecking Christ move on

 

[Rajma]

Damage will be felt for years to come imo. From the squad point of view the weak ass management has led to us constantly being taken advantage of by underperforming or unmotivated players which should have been long gone and replaced gradually but instead they will all now have to leave at once. Pogba, Martial, Lingard, Bailly, Donny(?) are very likely out in Jan/Summer, then you have few oldies departing at the same time like Mata, Matic, and Cavani. Ronaldo will be even older next year and even likely to leave after not receiving assurances for playing time. Also, a small matter of players with some huge question marks over their qualities to be consistent players for us that where put on the pedestal by previous regime such as Rashford, Shaw, AWB, and McT. This leaving a good squad nonsense is a big pile of bs as come the summer we’re likely to to see a total overhaul.

 

[Giggzy P]

The biggest damage for me has been the attitude. When we lost the Europa final you had Rashford and Ole saying they tried. It looks like it got accepted that trying was enough. The reason SAF was successful is he created a mentality of trophies was the whole point while Ole tired to make us believe that's not what's important.

Ralf has talked about mentality first. The mentality in the last 3 years has been poor.

Ole was a nice guy but he made us the fans and the players forget the standards required to play for united. Like Paul scholes said he let the club down.

As we move on, Ole in or out, surely we can see what Ralf wants. If players don't buy into it, well they can leave. Ole didn't have a plan. He wanted to enjoy his journey as united manager no matter what.

 

[Maticmaker]

I don't think 'damage' is the right word, it implies things were OK to start with.

I suspect its more about failure at all levels to sort things out since the year before SAF left and which through the lack of succession planning has resulted in self inflicted wounds, and a club where throughout the right hand doesn't seem to know what the left hand is doing and vice-versa.

The owners approach to managing a multi-million business, but not to managing a top level football club has undermined everything, the buying of players more to do with shirt sponsorship sales than team building. Yes, money has been available but often unwisely spent, or with strings attached, and managerial appointments have been all over the place.

Worst of all for fans, is to have had to witness when good players have arrived, that they have been allowed to slide into the ranks of mediocrity, discontentment, and the loss of confidence, that seems to be endemic behind the scenes and specifically in the training and coaching methods being used within the club; so much so that gradually the 'good things' they showed when they first arrived all seem to be dissipated over a period of months, not years (although in Martial's case it is more to do with years!). How long will it be before Varane and Sancho go the same way?

RR has a major problem on his hands; probably much bigger than even he realised originally, especially now that he has been 'close up and personal' to it, so to speak! How much real freedom will he have (e.g. to sell Martial if he wants too?), will the players 'gang leaders' get sorted by RR (as Tommy Doc did years ago), or will after six months we see Ralf return to whence he came?

 

[NoLogo]

For me the biggest problem was that none of our managers seemed to grasp the change that was happening in the football world over the last 10 years. We failed to recruit players who would thrive in the high tempo counter pressing teams we see everywhere today, which means we now have a squad with at least half of the players never having played for a team that operates in this style nor are willing to put in a shift for 90 minutes as the modern game requires. Ralf has a lot to do here if he wants to change the team's behavior when it comes to off the ball movement with or without the ball.

We also missed bringing real quality players into our midfield, while the competition stock piled quality midfielders who were not just good on the ball but also relentless workers. Now we are stuck with two midfield options which are essentially only workers, 1 luxury player and one who is way past his prime. We are also too top-heavy, we have essentially 5 players who all prefer to play as a striker and just one wide player who feels comfortable in being the chance creator.

Essentially, our squad is really imbalanced, and it's largely due to us not having a coherent plan or vision for what we needed, and apparently we're also unable to identify the needed players.

Whoever comes in next summer needs to address the weaknesses of our squad first before we buy anyone else. Adding Haaland might be a great move on paper because we would probably get one of the top 5 strikers in Europe, but we would still be stuck with a lackluster midfield, a first choice right FB with questionable ability on the ball despite the modern game demanding that those positions are almost as good at it like quality midfielders are, and a woeful lack of creativity in the higher positions of the pitch.

Oh yeah, and I totally forget, have a good analysis of our coaching setup. While pretty much any other top club like City, Liverpool and Chelsea manages to improve about 75% of their players, we without fail make almost everyone who comes to our club worse, there is no way this is coincidence, given how out of time our player types we were going for was I wouldn't be surprised if our training methods largely are stuck in the last decade as well.

 

[DSG]

Yeah it was a joke guys, chill.

I'm fully backing Ralfy boy. That said the main thing that Ole got some time for was the rebuild because we needed to get rid of a lot of deadwood, there are some that claim we are in that position right now again which I don't subscribe to HOWEVER my worry is the team we have may not A) Suit the 4-2-2-2 formation and B) the players may not suit the press. So we may well be in a similar situation where some rebuilding is required, which I will give the new manager time to complete, like I have with every manager.

Most here are glass half empty. The problem is that, once again, opinions tend to polarize at extremes without allowing for a bit of nuance.

The problems we had before the season are still there: lack of midfield options / quality. This is key to the 4-2-2-2 and to pressing.

we have too much talent in attack to say we don’t have the players for the 4-2-2-2. Also, pace and workrate are key and we have an abundance of pace in attack.

There is a possibility that a single player picked up in January could be transformative to the side, a la Bruno in 2020.

 

[Lentwood]

When we refer to 'the previous regime', we need to define who or what we are talking about.

Reason I say that is there are so many posters talking mainly about recruitment. In that regard, we are led to believe that Ole was one of 5/6 who had serious input and he had a manager's veto.

Point being, can we be confident that things have even changed in this respect? Hopefully Rangnick will offer more direction and input in this regard, but I don't think it will change overnight. We need to stop imagining the manager as being the one who signs players and assuming this will all change right away as soon as there is a new man in the dugout

 

[Tom Cato]

Our performance in the Europa League Final compared to Chelsea in the CL clearly showed they were a better side than us

At that stage in the season, sure. They were certainly not at the halfway point. What indications were there that the squad was good enough when they were dropping points left right and center under Lampard?