Damage done by previous regime

Tom Van Persie said:
I suggest you read this. https://theathletic.com/3042569/202...d-our-club-sir-alex-ferguson-influence-today/
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I know all about Fergie's influence having watched his teams.

Someone once asked John Lennon what made the Beatles so successful.
He said if they knew they would hire four guys and manage them.

The Glazers who know nothing about football were asking Fergie to clone himself.

So. Fergie chose Moyes. When that did not work out, the board once again went to him and so on.
The way to move forward as a football club is to be aware of the current state of the game and to be prepared to take on the best in Europe.
Which is exactly what Ralf is doing.
Yet we have idiotic threads doubting his ability after one draw.

EDIT:

Thank you for your thoughtful response unlike those from the abusive Fergie worshiping children whom I have reported.
 
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devilish said:
Maguire has zero pace, leadership and is incredibly error prone. AWB is decent defensively but offers zero creativity going forward. That would be fine in the 80s but not in modern football where the FB role had become one of the most important roles in football. Ole spent 130m on players who, quite frankly, shouldn't be at a top club. Heaton was nowhere near to United's level in his prime let alone now that he's 35 years old. We've already have too many goalkeepers in Henderson, DDG and Grant so that's a redundant salary. McShane has zero coaching experience and quite frankly he wasn't even EPL level in his prime let alone now. Once again it looks like a salary given to the boys.

Telles was 27 years old when we bought him. He was signed for now not for the next few years. Also I struggle to understand why we signed young players considering Ole's obsession in hoarding players. I mean even the likes of Sancho and VDB were struggling to get game time under Ole let alone the likes of Pellistri and Diallo.

Unless players do not play football then their price goes down. That's how football work.
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He's had a bad season and I'd agree we overpaid by 20m, but that's about it. He's out of form, but if you're judging him, then judge him for the last 2.5 years rather than just the last 6 months. He's played an incredible amount of games, and has been more consistent than not. Hell, I'd say he's been among the top CBs in the league - behind Dias, VVD and at max Laporte. AWB - again has been incredibly consistent. I can get the complain of lack of attacking output, and he's struggled, but he is nowhere as bad as people make him out to be. Heaton wasn't brought in to be starting for us. It's like complaining why Pep signed Scott Carson! And McShane is coaching U-23s not the seniors. He's one of their overage players and came in for a free.

Telles as a backup for 15m is a top deal as well. Sure, I wanted a bit more from him but you cant complain about us having overpaid for him! The last point about hoarding players is a fair complain and I agree with that bit.

Irrespective, I dont think we're going to agree on this, so no point continuing further
 
anant said:
He's had a bad season and I'd agree we overpaid by 20m, but that's about it. He's out of form, but if you're judging him, then judge him for the last 2.5 years rather than just the last 6 months. He's played an incredible amount of games, and has been more consistent than not. Hell, I'd say he's been among the top CBs in the league - behind Dias, VVD and at max Laporte. AWB - again has been incredibly consistent. I can get the complain of lack of attacking output, and he's struggled, but he is nowhere as bad as people make him out to be. Heaton wasn't brought in to be starting for us. It's like complaining why Pep signed Scott Carson! And McShane is coaching U-23s not the seniors. He's one of their overage players and came in for a free.

Telles as a backup for 15m is a top deal as well. Sure, I wanted a bit more from him but you cant complain about us having overpaid for him! The last point about hoarding players is a fair complain and I agree with that bit.

Irrespective, I dont think we're going to agree on this, so no point continuing further
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Maguire is suited for a defence who play in a low block. He lacks the brains and the pace to play efficiently in a team with a high line. AWB is painfully limited. He can defend but he struggles going forward. One has to take in context the fees we've paid for them which is an eye watering 130m. If both were to be sold then we'd easily lose 40%-50% of the money
 
stevoc said:
No I'd largely agree mate, we've done some absolutely horrendous and some down right weird business post SAF and all his successors are guilty. But my main point was let's not pretend LVG wasn't as culpable in this clusterfeck just as much if not more than Dave, Jose and Ole were.



I'd say all those contracts are/were part of some sort of plan for future coaching roles. Heaton is here because we needed a 3rd choice keeper in that role it wasn't a bad transfer, the McShane one was certainly strange though.
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Out of all managers we had LVG is the only one who made me doze off watching United on a regular basis. So don't think that I am his no 1 supporter far from it. Regarding your second comment I really don't get it.

A- We already had Grant as third keeper and he was also promised a coaching role at one point. How many inexperienced coaches do we need?
B- What's the point of giving an inexperienced coach the salary of a player (which is usually higher then that of a coach)? If we need a coach then we should get the best.
 
anant said:
He's had a bad season and I'd agree we overpaid by 20m, but that's about it. He's out of form, but if you're judging him, then judge him for the last 2.5 years rather than just the last 6 months. He's played an incredible amount of games, and has been more consistent than not. Hell, I'd say he's been among the top CBs in the league - behind Dias, VVD and at max Laporte. AWB - again has been incredibly consistent. I can get the complain of lack of attacking output, and he's struggled, but he is nowhere as bad as people make him out to be. Heaton wasn't brought in to be starting for us. It's like complaining why Pep signed Scott Carson! And McShane is coaching U-23s not the seniors. He's one of their overage players and came in for a free.

Telles as a backup for 15m is a top deal as well. Sure, I wanted a bit more from him but you cant complain about us having overpaid for him! The last point about hoarding players is a fair complain and I agree with that bit.

Irrespective, I dont think we're going to agree on this, so no point continuing further
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You are talking the worlds most expensive defender and one of the highest transfers for a full back. They should both have been WC, not they were consistantly good which is not true either. WB was consistantly out of position and Maguire panics if someone runs at him. 2 very poor buys for £130 mill imo.
 
There’s a lot of ground to cover if we’re going to retrace every dumbfukk decision by the board going back to the appointment of Moyes. All of it has been discussed here before. My two cents is that it was obvious the right time to relieve Ole of duty was right after the and of last season. We didn’t, it all predictably fell apart and now we’re rebuilding mode again and in need of a new manager next season.
 
Ralph1386 said:
Of course that is not what I’m advocating.

Can we at least agree that it would have been better to get an affordable DM last summer, instead of waiting until 2022 to pay 80M for Declan Rice and not getting anyone else in the meantime? What’s your opinion on that?
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If we had the budget to get one and one of suitable quality was available for what we could afford after signing Sancho and Varane then yes of course.
 
wolvored said:
He was the man in charge, The buck ultimately stopped with him.
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Are we talking about Solskjaer at United or Cardiff here?

At United yes of course he had enough time and money to do better than he did. He should have won a cup or two at least.

At Cardiff weren't they were pretty much already heading towards relegation by the time Solskjaer took over in January?
 
devilish said:
Out of all managers we had LVG is the only one who made me doze off watching United on a regular basis. So don't think that I am his no 1 supporter far from it. Regarding your second comment I really don't get it.

A- We already had Grant as third keeper and he was also promised a coaching role at one point. How many inexperienced coaches do we need?
B- What's the point of giving an inexperienced coach the salary of a player (which is usually higher then that of a coach)? If we need a coach then we should get the best.
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Listen mate I can't make much sense of any of it either but we see that under Solskjaer and now even Rangnick Heaton is the 3rd choice so something must be going on with Grant.

The likes of Grant, Mata etc could have just been hired as coaches/ambassadors last summer if that's the plan for them. I agree they shouldn't still be on playing contracts.
 
I think Ole brought the club something, a renowned face in charge lots of sentimentality etc. However he did not offer anything to the team.
 
wolvored said:
Poor coaching or lack of it
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Are you talking about Rangnick? Bit harsh as he's only been here for awhile. Otherwise Bruno played some of his best football since he joined, won a ton of accolades and has been the best player in the league at one point. As I've said before, Ralf needs to figure out how to get the best out of him and fast.
 
stevoc said:
Listen mate I can't make much sense of any of it either but we see that under Solskjaer and now even Rangnick Heaton is the 3rd choice so something must be going on with Grant.

The likes of Grant, Mata etc could have just been hired as coaches/ambassadors last summer if that's the plan for them. I agree they shouldn't still be on playing contracts.
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Heaton is better and younger then Grant. He also have a 2 year contract with United as opposed to Grant's 1 year contract which we know for sure that he would honour. I doubt that there will be many clubs willing to get a 35 year old goalkeeper off our hands especially one who isn't particularly good to start with. So yes, Rangnick considers Heaton as our 3rd keeper mostly because we hardly have a choice on that. He's here to stay whether Rangnick likes it or not.

During Ole's time nepotism went on a whole new level. One only have to see Fletcher's ridiculous rise to prominence as an example. He was brought as U-16 coach in late October 2020 at a time when he hasn't even completed his coaching badges. He then got a promotion to first team in early January 2021 and then went on to become our technical director in early March 2021. Now either Darren Fletcher is the reincarnation of Busby, Shankly and Clough combined which means we have in our hands a football genius or else.......
 
devilish said:
Heaton is better and younger then Grant. He also have a 2 year contract with United as opposed to Grant's 1 year contract which we know for sure that he would honour. I doubt that there will be many clubs willing to get a 35 year old goalkeeper off our hands especially one who isn't particularly good to start with. So yes, Rangnick considers Heaton as our 3rd keeper mostly because we hardly have a choice on that. He's here to stay whether Rangnick likes it or not.

During Ole's time nepotism went on a whole new level. One only have to see Fletcher's ridiculous rise to prominence as an example. He was brought as U-16 coach in late October 2020 at a time when he hasn't even completed his coaching badges. He then got a promotion to first team in early January 2021 and then went on to become our technical director in early March 2021. Now either Darren Fletcher is the reincarnation of Busby, Shankly and Clough combined which means we have in our hands a football genius or else.......
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Pretty sure Ole wasn't the one who promoted him to TD. Also, we've always given jobs to our ex-players and promoted them if they've been good. Butt for example joined us to complete his hours for coaching badges but got the U-18s(?) job under SAF.
 
devilish said:
Heaton is better and younger then Grant. He also have a 2 year contract with United as opposed to Grant's 1 year contract which we know for sure that he would honour. I doubt that there will be many clubs willing to get a 35 year old goalkeeper off our hands especially one who isn't particularly good to start with. So yes, Rangnick considers Heaton as our 3rd keeper mostly because we hardly have a choice on that. He's here to stay whether Rangnick likes it or not.

During Ole's time nepotism went on a whole new level. One only have to see Fletcher's ridiculous rise to prominence as an example. He was brought as U-16 coach in late October 2020 at a time when he hasn't even completed his coaching badges. He then got a promotion to first team in early January 2021 and then went on to become our technical director in early March 2021. Now either Darren Fletcher is the reincarnation of Busby, Shankly and Clough combined which means we have in our hands a football genius or else.......
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Not 100% sure Ole was behind Fletcher's various appointments. Is that definitely something the first team manager deals with, under Ferguson no doubt but since Woodward's been in charge I'm not sure.
 
stevoc said:
Not 100% sure Ole was behind Fletcher's various appointments. Is that definitely something the first team manager deals with, under Ferguson no doubt but since Woodward's been in charge I'm not sure.
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He probably was behind his appointment as first team coach in January 2021. No way he joins Ole’s staff without his approval.

Then his appointment as Technical Director must have been down to someone else. Maybe Murtough.
 
wolvored said:
Poor coaching or lack of it
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Our previous manager and the assistant manager did not coach, they were not even in the damn training sessions. And carrick was just starting out as a coach therefore, its no coincidence we looked clueless on the pitch and still do.

Months of proper coaching will be needed to undo the lack of coaching that lasted a couple of years.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Are you talking about Rangnick? Bit harsh as he's only been here for awhile. Otherwise Bruno played some of his best football since he joined, won a ton of accolades and has been the best player in the league at one point. As I've said before, Ralf needs to figure out how to get the best out of him and fast.
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No Ole. Bruno was superb for 12 months and then very gradually got worse through the coaching offered,
 
VidaRed said:
Our previous manager and the assistant manager did not coach, they were not even in the damn training sessions. And carrick was just starting out as a coach therefore, its no coincidence we looked clueless on the pitch and still do.

Months of proper coaching will be needed to undo the lack of coaching that lasted a couple of years.
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I agree. Hopefully by feb we will see some semblance of improvement
 
Ralph1386 said:
He probably was behind his appointment as first team coach in January 2021. No way he joins Ole’s staff without his approval.

Then his appointment as Technical Director must have been down to someone else. Maybe Murtough.
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Yeah I'd go with that version of events too if I had to guess.
 
Red Dreams said:
I know all about Fergie's influence having watched his teams.

Someone once asked John Lennon what made the Beatles so successful.
He said if they knew they would hire four guys and manage them.

The Glazers who know nothing about football were asking Fergie to clone himself.

So. Fergie chose Moyes. When that did not work out, the board once again went to him and so on.
The way to move forward as a football club is to be aware of the current state of the game and to be prepared to take on the best in Europe.
Which is exactly what Ralf is doing.
Yet we have idiotic threads doubting his ability after one draw.

EDIT:

Thank you for your thoughtful response unlike those from the abusive Fergie worshiping children whom I have reported.
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Well said.
 
stevoc said:
Not 100% sure Ole was behind Fletcher's various appointments. Is that definitely something the first team manager deals with, under Ferguson no doubt but since Woodward's been in charge I'm not sure.
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Ralph1386 said:
He probably was behind his appointment as first team coach in January 2021. No way he joins Ole’s staff without his approval.

Then his appointment as Technical Director must have been down to someone else. Maybe Murtough.
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Managers at United appoints first team coaches and have a huge say on how the academy runs. Regarding the role of technical director it acts as a bridge between the coaching staff and administrations so I guess both Murtough and Ole would have a say on that. We'll have to wait and see if the policy of hiring former players with no coaching experience whatsoever as coaches will change with Rangnick.
 
We had a fantastic side in the late Noughties but we under-invested and allowed the team to grow old together.

We made one or two signings in an attempt to fix this after the PIK loans were restructured in 2010 (likes of De Gea, Jones, Smalling, Kagawa, Bebe, Hernandez) but broadly speaking they didn't live up to the lofty standards of the players they were supposed to be replacing.

This meant that by the time LvG took over from Moyes in 2015, we had lost Giggs, Scholes, Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra and Fletcher within two seasons. Throw in Rooney, RvP and Carrick who had class but not the legs and suddenly we had lost nearly an entire XI of world-class players.

When people look at the evolution of football teams, they are usually only capable of looking at one or two seasons, but in reality it takes far longer to destroy or rebuild a club like United.

What we did between 2005-2010 would be akin to City now posting a positive net spend for the next 5 years. Sure, they would still win trophies short-term, but they would suddenly find themselves in the position then of having to replace several players at once. This is incredibly difficult to do.

We were in a position of hard-earned luxury in 2006+, we should have been spending £70m net per annum on two/three high-quality new players (not interest payments)...just imagine the players we could/should have signed during the period, unhindered by the Glazers.
 
stevoc said:
Are we talking about Solskjaer at United or Cardiff here?

At United yes of course he had enough time and money to do better than he did. He should have won a cup or two at least.

At Cardiff weren't they were pretty much already heading towards relegation by the time Solskjaer took over in January?
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Cardiff were 17th, one point above the relegation zone when Solskjaer was appointed. Sure, they were in a relegation battle but they were no certainties to be relegated. The likes of Sam Allardyce or Tony Pulis would have fancied themselves to keep Cardiff up.
 
Ole was extremely wasteful with the squad and creating a worse scenario of deadwood/unhappy players than previous managers, he kept hold of mata for too long despite not using him, same with beek, same with matic, same with henderson, same with bailly, same with telles, same with dalot, same with lingard, same with diallo and the same with martial this season, that is a easily 100 million in wasted transfer money and a huge waste of salary bill.
 
Damn, i can't remember in history of PL when one manager did this level of damage in one club. Worst manager hiring in PL history by far.
"Give him time to build his own team" sounds like one of those plans from movies which ends with "What can go wrong?"
 
As much as I love Fergie, the 'no value in the market' era marked the beginning of our gradual decline. It's been wrong decision after wrong decision ever since. I just hope it's different this time around.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Damn, i can't remember in history of PL when one manager did this level of damage in one club. Worst manager hiring in PL history by far.
"Give him time to build his own team" sounds like one of those plans from movies which ends with "What can go wrong?"
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The funniest thing is that the manager that followed him spoke to him on the phone for two hours to take his ‘advice’. :lol: I wonder whose idea it was to let the new guy speak to the one who had just gotten 4 out of 21 points in the league and take his insight.
 
Ralph1386 said:
The funniest thing is that the manager that followed him spoke to him on the phone for two hours to take his ‘advice’. :lol: I wonder whose idea it was to let the new guy speak to the one who had just gotten 4 out of 21 points in the league and take his insight.
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:lol: :lol:. Exactly.
Oh, i will add that. Ole broke even our next manager. Guy is more lethal than covid. Ole the destroyer.
New curse football; "I wish that your club hire Solskjaer." It is avada kedavra in world of football.
 
Ole’s signings weren’t very good, he set low standards that him and the players were content with. Patting themselves on the back and being rewarded with new contracts and pay rises despite winning or achieving nothing. Everything needs to be ripped up and start again but no one will get the time and patience Ole got so this is a very tough job now. We backed wrong horse and might spend a long time paying for it.
 
If we’re talking contracts then that should have nothing to do with the “previous regime” since those decisions are made (or at least should be) by the money men and Murtough/Fletcher.

Ole’s mistake was severe lack of squad rotation, leading to an unhappy dressing room. Nothing that can’t be undone, although I do wish Rangnick would have the balls to bench Ronny (instead of giving him the fecking captains armband…)
 
You guys were a better team after Mourinho was sacked because he actually coached the team properly ( remember that 10 straight win that gives ole the permanent job despite him admitting he never actually coach ? ) , it's just the players downtooling on Mourinho. And he was sacked prematurely after not so bad results for the last 10 EPL games ( 4 wins, 4 draw and 2 losses against city and Liverpool )

But Ole apparantly leaving the team in better place compared right ? On FIFA maybe , but what about the balance ? The mentality ? The coaching ?
 
Roboc7 said:
Ole’s signings weren’t very good, he set low standards that him and the players were content with. Patting themselves on the back and being rewarded with new contracts and pay rises despite winning or achieving nothing. Everything needs to be ripped up and start again but no one will get the time and patience Ole got so this is a very tough job now. We backed wrong horse and might spend a long time paying for it.
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The fans who backed ole are the ones piling on rangnick after a month of being in charge.

They are a disgrace.
 
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