The list is diabolical. But to his credit he did change tact near the end and just when everything had fallen apart completely he managed to soldier on to win the F.A. Cup. I think he at least hinted at a solution by giving the youngsters a shot. Everyone knew since Christmas that Mourinho would take over. Yet Van Gaal kept it together in a way that his successors couldn't.
Damage done by previous regime
- Thread starter RedBanker
- Start date
TBF LVG had inherited an old squad that needed new talent in. LVG's signings were mostly players of the right age and at the right salary which made it easy for the next manager to sell if he needed. Some were unsuited for the EPL (LVG simply couldn't get his head around how the EPL worked) however there were some talent who had to the potential to develop better if only we didn't brought two absolute killers of young talent aka Mou and Ole. I am referring to the likes of Depay for example or Blind. LVG issue was more about not understanding the EPL then anything else.
Mou started this salary raise spiral by basically bringing every player in Mino Raiola's book (Pogba, Ibra, Mkhitaryan, Lukaku) and signing players who were at the wrong age (Sanchez, Matic etc). Then Ole continued with the work by basically buying EPL proven players (Maguire, AWB etc), big name signings (Ronaldo, Cavani, Varane etc), mateys (Heaton, McShane) and by giving contract extension to anyone who smiled back to him (Matic, Mata, Grant etc)
Mate, that’s one steaming pile of shit. A few came good, of course, but only after Van Gaal left. If a time machine were possible, I would love to have had prime Schweinsteiger. It wouldn’t be completely out of order to consider him for the all- time 23 squad.
Come on mate how many did we sell for a profit or break even on?
Schneiderlin and Blind we got back what we paid and that's about it. Pretty much all of Van Gaal's other singings lost the club money when sold. We only got rid of the likes of Romero and Rojo in the last year, Darmian 2 years ago.
Mourinho and Ole made their mistakes and terrible signings also no doubt but in my opinion they were both hamstrung by inheriting most of the shit Van Gaal signed that we couldn't get rid of for years. Looking back on Van Gaal's transfers in and out he could have signed virtually no one and just kept Fergie's squad and I doubt we'd have been much worse off on the pitch but having saved a few hundred million off it by the time Mourinho took over.
Some of the contracts handed out have been ridiculous but that happened under Jose and Ole so I'm leaning towards that being the clubs fault trying to 'preserve value' rather than any particular manager.
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Back to the point. Actually you answered your own question. Why English players then ? Are they some superior nationality or something else when we know they would be overpriced as hell ? Cultural reboot my ass.
Because lazy scouting and premiership proven.
And Ole still believe this prem proven bollox when for example most of City players came from outside PL.
This is an British club which will buy British Players.
If I wanted to watch Spanish or French players regularly then I would watch a Spanish League or Ligue 1 team.
This will never change in the club, whether we bring them up from our youth teams like Scholes/Beckham/Giggs or buy them for money like Rooney/Ferdinand/Carrick.
City have bought Walker, Sterling, Stones, Grealish, whilst there youth system has got Foden, Palmer, Delap and players playing with Anderlecht.
Liverpool have bought or used - Robertson, TAA, Henderson, Milner, Curtis Jones, Joe Gomez, Chamberlain, Phillips, Williams, Elliott and many more trying to make the step up.
Chelsea whose youth system has spread across the PL (Rice etc) has bought or used Chilwell, James, Mount, Chalobah, Loftus Cheek, Barkley, then has Gallagher, Gilmour and Ampadu who have been hyped at different times.
Just yesterday people were impressed with arsenal showing signs of a resurgence- have bought or used Ramsdale instead of Leno, Ben White, Tierney, Saka, Smith Rowe, holding, Chambers, niles.
Spurs have - Kane, Skipp, Dier, Davies, Tangnana, Alli, Doherty, Sessengnon, winks, Scarlett, Rodon, Parrott and more.
Every team except Arsenal (who has arguably only made changes this season) - have been in a CL final in the last 2 to 3 years. Now that is not just due to English players - but top managers who have used them and able to get the best out of them in important matches.
This English players are shit thing is rubbish, just in this transfer window people will be crying out for Bellingham for what he is doing at Dortmund.
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Absolutely right. Some people don't pause to think before making their idiocy plain for all to see.
To be clear I dont have any problem of using English players. Most of your example are either academy players or most of them are not bought from other PL "top 6" rivals (excluding the obvious like Grealish, Sterling). The thing that I have a problem is getting swindled over because of english tax. We have 130m of deadweight in the club because of this policy. Why couldnt we look elsewhere and persist buying them when we know we are getting swindled ?
What about the French deadweight of Pogba and Martial?
Costing 90 million for pogba and 54 million for Martial including add ons like France call ups?
Arguably one is leaving on a free aswell so we can't even make some of our money back at all. Martial is doing nothing and not getting any interest from a transfer either. We have to pay for his wages to play for someone else if he goes on a loan.
What makes this French transfer good and the English transfers bad? Them arguably being more expensive and also showing no signs of loyalty or achievement of expectations?
Let's look at Barcelona.
Do you remember how United fans were crying for Greizmann? 120 mil euros. Flop. Ousamane Dembele 135 million pound flop plus more that many United fans wanted. Umtiti and lenglet costing over 50 million for both of them together. It's now Gavi and Pedro and Fati that are giving that club some sort of hope isn't it?
It's like people forget Nicolas Pepe's transfer to arsenal. Coutinho to Barcelona. Hazard to Madrid. What about Ferren Torres at City? Couldn't even settle and has moved back. People were just complaining about Fred's transfer fee before some managers were able to get him to some form.
I have no idea why it's just these English players who only flop in people's heads or being overpriced.
But that happens on almost every outgoing transfer we make. Ibra's last contract was a waste of money, we definitely lost money on Sanchez, Mkhitaryan and probably Lukaku as well and we're set to lose huge money on Pogba and Matic. Someone should investigate why we made so many deals with Mino Raiola considering that the guy tend to take a pound of flesh in terms of bonuses every single time his player signs with a club. Meanwhile if we had to sell Dalot, Bailly and Lindelof then we would struggle recouping the money we spent on them as well. The same would happen if Ole's players were to be sold. We stand to lose money on VDB and if we had to put Maguire and AWB on sale then I very much doubt that we'll find any suckers ready to spend an eye watering 130m on them.
I very much doubt that we kept matey Mata and matey Matic to preserve their value especially since the rumours were that they were set to be given coaching roles once they retired. I also doubt that matey Heaton and matey McShane were signed because the club wanted them as well.
Oh feck off
The players you've listed for Ole were absolute bargains - Most of these signings were praised for being cheap, and I do think had Henderson not caught COVID, one of DDG and Henderson would have been sold/loaned off. In Telles, we got a very decent backup LB to Shaw - who was still not that consistent. In Varane, for 40m or so, we got a WC CB in his peak years and in Ronaldo - even though I'm not as big a fan of his - we got a fantastic goal scorer for 15m euros over 3(?) years (which in a way makes him cheaper than Falcao for whom we paid 6m for that year).
There are things you can blame him for - like handling out contracts to Mata this season, handing over a 3 year contract to Matic, keeping a bloated side, overpaying for a few players but in terms of transfers, his record was more than decent
Ole spent an eye watering 145m on Maguire, AWB and James. That first transfer window was followed by what I like to call the 'phantom' transfer window as none of the players bought during that time was even given a sniff of first team football (VDB, Pellistri, Diallo and Telles). Its too early to judge his last transfer window although if he was still in control then I could see Sancho ending up the VDB route. I fail to see how Heaton and McShane can be considered absolute bargains. They weren't good enough for United in their prime let alone now when they are ancient. Its more the case of giving a contract to the boys.
Regarding talent one need to see the bigger picture. Players can be absolute beasts on the pitch but they might ruin the dressing room as well. For example Ronaldo was Juventus best player by a mile but the morale in the dressing room nosedived with his me me me attitude. Injuries is also something to keep tabs upon. Its pointless getting a top player if he's rarely available.
Not going to get into a bashing contest cause I don't even think Ole had the final say on transfers, we have a transfer committee.
What I do think is that the club have built a side incapable of playing progressive football and the years of lack of top class coaching has exacerbated the problem.
What I do think is that the club have built a side incapable of playing progressive football and the years of lack of top class coaching has exacerbated the problem.
Trippier is decent but on the wrong side of 30. Rice is good, you are right and I cannot disagree with you on that. But being good for West Ham and good for United are two different things, as can be seen with Maguire. Not to mention the element of risk associated with the huge price tag.
I was replying to @Anru and @Jackal981 who were saying that Ole was a very British manager who went for British players. That’s why I mentioned who his next signings were going to be. They were making a point that instead of overpaying for these players we could have gotten better (or equal) players at the same price.
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Did we overpay for HM and AWB? Yes. But them having a bad season doesnt make them bad signings. Maguire was one of the best CBs in the league last season, AWB did show some potential going forward as well, and irrespective, he's still pretty young. On James, we did earn a profit of 10-15m in 2 seasons, which is pretty good. McShane was brought in as a player-coach and Heaton was bought on a free - so not sure how have we overpaid for either of them.
Diallo and Telles weren't bought for last season. They've been bought in for the next few years, just like we have signed countless other youth players in the past.
Look, I'm not going to say he had a perfect transfer record, and you need to question the lack of chances VDB has been given, but overpaying for HM and AWB aside, I'd say his transfer record (for incomings) isn't as bad as people make it out to be.
I don’t think the signing of Maguire and Wan Bissaka is the problem. The problem is that they have regressed since joining and are now playing some of their worst football.
Just going to say Herrera and Blind should still be at the club. And most of that group won the FA Cup, League Cup, and Europa League across 2 seasons.
I would say Woodward shares a lot of the blame for the post Fergie transfers because of his Disney Land/Galacticos mindset which I think he wanted LVG to buy into. We know Mourinho had his problems with the board not making the signings he wanted so there was some interference there. When people look back at "damage done by previous regimes" Woodward should be front and centre and hopefully his departure is a big turning point.
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Posts like this are rubbish because all it does it focus on a personal opinion of individual ability. Why do people keep ignoring the most critical component of a team sport? By that I mean how functional the team is.
Perfect example of this is how people used to call Milner and Henderson shite. Yet they play important roles in a team that plays incredible football.
We're told Solskjaer left behind the best team by far, when actually he left behind a terrible team, but players who are individually rated higher than those past managers had left behind. It's almost completely irrelevant to list a load of players and give an opinion on each one, when really all that matters is how strong the team was.
We were boring under LVG but we were functional, and won a trophy. We were functional under Jose and won trophies until he self destructed.
Under Solskjaer we weren't functional, we were inconsistent and relied too heavily on luck and individuals. He built a poor team and as a result he damaged our short to mid term chances of achieving our targets.
I suggest you read this. https://theathletic.com/3042569/202...d-our-club-sir-alex-ferguson-influence-today/
Maguire has zero pace, leadership and is incredibly error prone. AWB is decent defensively but offers zero creativity going forward. That would be fine in the 80s but not in modern football where the FB role had become one of the most important roles in football. Ole spent 130m on players who, quite frankly, shouldn't be at a top club. Heaton was nowhere near to United's level in his prime let alone now that he's 35 years old. We've already have too many goalkeepers in Henderson, DDG and Grant so that's a redundant salary. McShane has zero coaching experience and quite frankly he wasn't even EPL level in his prime let alone now. Once again it looks like a salary given to the boys.
Telles was 27 years old when we bought him. He was signed for now not for the next few years. Also I struggle to understand why we signed young players considering Ole's obsession in hoarding players. I mean even the likes of Sancho and VDB were struggling to get game time under Ole let alone the likes of Pellistri and Diallo.
Unless players do not play football then their price goes down. That's how football work.
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Because Manchester United is an English club?
Is this a trick question or something?
No I'd largely agree mate, we've done some absolutely horrendous and some down right weird business post SAF and all his successors are guilty. But my main point was let's not pretend LVG wasn't as culpable in this clusterfeck just as much if not more than Dave, Jose and Ole were.
I'd say all those contracts are/were part of some sort of plan for future coaching roles. Heaton is here because we needed a 3rd choice keeper in that role it wasn't a bad transfer, the McShane one was certainly strange though.
I get that but English players cost more than most others because the PL is flush with money, that's a fact some people seem to have a hard time accepting. So unless some of you are advocating the club should stop trying to sign English players then the club will inevitably have to pay very high fees for certain English players. And despite those high fees the transfers like all transfers are a risk and not guaranteed to work out.
Manchester United is an English club so at any given point a fair chunk of the squad should always be English/British.
Who saddled us with Moyes?Yes yes it was all Fergie's fault. You silly twats
Not a topic to discuss in here but Herrera wanted out and made his choice. Blind is a good player would have been useful but sadly he's had heart problems since he left, don't know how that would have worked out playing in the PL.
Woodward is definitely part of the problem and should shoulder some of the responsibility for all the shit we've signed post 2013.
I find that kind of thinking rather obsolete and considering that United is not even owned by the English I’d say we should stick to minimum requirements of homegrowns and on top of that always aim at increasing the quality of the squad
If you're serious about arguing the point that it's Fergie's fault you'll need more than that.
So your whole assessment of the respective squads of LVG, Jose and Ole and their tenures seems to boil down to Louie and Jose won a cup competition but Ole didn't. That's a very simplistic way of looking at things especially as cup competitions are a lottery where you need luck. We were one penalty kick away from winning the Europa in an 11-10 shoot-out last year, if that DeGea pen goes in and their keeper misses then Solskjaer's time as United manager would have been comparable and arguably better than Jose's and certainly Van Gaal's given his league finishes.
I'd say this is harsh and perhaps a bit disingenuous, before this season when it went tits up United had been fairly consistent over the last 2 years. Finishing 3rd and 2nd in consecutive seasons shows that, not consistent enough to mount a title challenge granted but you need to be fairly consistent to come top 4 over a 38 game season, especially 2 years in a row.
So your whole assessment of the respective squads of LVG, Jose and Ole and their tenures seems to boil down to Louie and Jose won a cup competition but Ole didn't. That's a very simplistic way of looking at things especially as cup competitions are a lottery where you need luck. We were one penalty kick away from winning the Europa in an 11-10 shoot-out last year, if that DeGea pen goes in and their keeper misses then Solskjaer's time as United manager would have been comparable and arguably better than Jose's and certainly Van Gaal's given his league finishes.
I'd say this is harsh and perhaps a bit disingenuous, before this season when it went tits up United had been fairly consistent over the last 2 years. Finishing 3rd and 2nd in consecutive seasons shows that, not consistent enough to mount a title challenge granted but you need to be fairly consistent to come top 4 over a 38 game season, especially 2 years in a row.
If he wanted to watch British players he could watch England games. Man United should get the best player available regardless of his nationality. Why dont while at it we hire Steve Bruce or Sean Dyche ? Need a proper Brexit manager too I guess for the DNA. Did he also forget we are owned by bunch of Yankees ?
It doesn't matter who the owners are, it really doesn't.
Man Utd is still an English club though so regardless of quotas the aim should always be to have as many local Manchester/English lads as possible. And supplement them with top talent from other countries where needed.
I'm Irish.
The same can be said of Bruno Fernandes. That is down to the coaching they got since joining.
Of course that is not what I’m advocating.
Can we at least agree that it would have been better to get an affordable DM last summer, instead of waiting until 2022 to pay 80M for Declan Rice and not getting anyone else in the meantime? What’s your opinion on that?
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We could choose almost any DM in the world with that price tag. Is Rice the best out all of them ? If he is then we can sign him. One of the reason why Lampard was sacked because of his insistence signing Rice which is rightfully so.
He was the man in charge, The buck ultimately stopped with him.
Poor coaching or lack of it