Criticism is fine (and encouraged) but there are some criticisms thrown at Ole that don't make any sense

Where is the criticism encouraged??

Also, I may be being uncharitable to the OP here, but It reads like "Criticism is fine...as long as I agree with it"
 
BusbyMalone said:
Where is the criticism encouraged??

Also, I may be being uncharitable to the OP here, but It reads like "Criticism is fine...as long as I agree with it"
Click to expand...

We don’t want to post on a site where you can’t criticise the manager. People just don’t want idiots posting drivel constantly.
 
El Jefe said:
The goal posts are always changing with Ole's staunch supporters.
Click to expand...

The goalposts are always changing says our friend El Jefe.

El Jefe originally thought that Ole would do worse than Mourinho and LVG.

If LVG and Mourinho failed, then Ole has the potential to make his tenure here the worst shit show imaginable.
Click to expand...

He was also embarrassed that we had by far the worst manager of the top six when we hired him.

He was managing in Norway for a reason. Once you accept that it should be quite obvious that he'll always be lost at this level, particularly the top 6.

Guardiola, Klopp, Pochettino, Sarri, Emery and Solskjaer. Doesn't take a genius to see he is horribly out of place.
Click to expand...

Worse than Emery said our friend @El Jefe originally. He of course expected him to be shown up against the other five. His expectations must not have changed.

those lot will be asking for us to give Ole time and back the manager when we're out of the top 4 race by March 2020.
Click to expand...

Our good friend El Jefe thought we'd never get top four under Ole. We'd be out of the race by March! But his goal posts stayed the same.

I mean look at this post:

Yes, Ole has improved the team but that's only a portion of the goal. What we really need to do, is improve more than the other teams around us and be in a position to eventually catch Liverpool.
Click to expand...
All El Jefe was asking is that we improve more than those around us and eventually catch Liverpool. This was posted in 2020 but his goalposts haven't changed.

What did El Jefe want?

I also do think the excuses are drying up and becoming boring now, finishing 3rd was good but it means feck all if we dont progress from there
Click to expand...

If only we had pushed on from third last season.

Finally, let's see when @El Jefe thinks criticism should stop?

The wider point was Mourinho and Lampard had serious criticism towards the end of last season but very good transfer signings and a good start to the season has brought an end to the criticism. If Ole was able to do the same, this thread would not be active.
Click to expand...

Obviously, making good signings and a good start to a season should end criticism. As El Jefe righfully pointed out when sticking up for two clearly superior managers to Ole.

If only people like me would stop moving the goalposts.
 
Also. This is not a 'both sides' issue. There is literally dozens of people complaining about how negativity is driving them from this forum. NO-ONE has left this forum in the last month and thought, 'Ugh, I'm going to stop posting there. They're too positive for me.'
 
Wumminator said:
The goalposts are always changing says our friend El Jefe.

El Jefe originally thought that Ole would do worse than Mourinho and LVG.



He was also embarrassed that we had by far the worst manager of the top six when we hired him.



Worse than Emery said our friend @El Jefe originally. He of course expected him to be shown up against the other five. His expectations must not have changed.



Our good friend El Jefe thought we'd never get top four under Ole. We'd be out of the race by March! But his goal posts stayed the same.

I mean look at this post:

All El Jefe was asking is that we improve more than those around us and eventually catch Liverpool. This was posted in 2020 but his goalposts haven't changed.

What did El Jefe want?



If only we had pushed on from third last season.

Finally, let's see when @El Jefe thinks criticism should stop?



Obviously, making good signings and a good start to a season should end criticism. As El Jefe righfully pointed out when sticking up for two clearly superior managers to Ole.

If only people like me would stop moving the goalposts.
Click to expand...
Did you really go search El Jefes posting history? :lol: Kudos to you.
 
Wumminator said:
Also. This is not a 'both sides' issue. There is literally dozens of people complaining about how negativity is driving them from this forum. NO-ONE has left this forum in the last month and thought, 'Ugh, I'm going to stop posting there. They're too positive for me.'
Click to expand...

It is both side issue and both sides are obnoxius as hell.
 
Wumminator said:
The goalposts are always changing says our friend El Jefe.

El Jefe originally thought that Ole would do worse than Mourinho and LVG.



He was also embarrassed that we had by far the worst manager of the top six when we hired him.



Worse than Emery said our friend @El Jefe originally. He of course expected him to be shown up against the other five. His expectations must not have changed.



Our good friend El Jefe thought we'd never get top four under Ole. We'd be out of the race by March! But his goal posts stayed the same.

I mean look at this post:

All El Jefe was asking is that we improve more than those around us and eventually catch Liverpool. This was posted in 2020 but his goalposts haven't changed.

What did El Jefe want?



If only we had pushed on from third last season.

Finally, let's see when @El Jefe thinks criticism should stop?



Obviously, making good signings and a good start to a season should end criticism. As El Jefe righfully pointed out when sticking up for two clearly superior managers to Ole.

If only people like me would stop moving the goalposts.
Click to expand...
This is desperate stuff :lol:

The Emery you look down upon, is the coach who got the better of Ole in the EL final with a much inferior team. Ole might be better suited to being the United manager but he's not close to being as good as a coach as any of the ones I listed.

The measure of success for a Manchester United manager is trophies. There's no moving of the goal posts from those that are unconvinced by Ole because he hasn't won any yet. As I said, if Ole wins trophies, I will admit I'm wrong and be extremely happy he's our manager. I can't say the same for you if he was to have another trophyless season this year, you've already said your expectations for the season are a title challenge and a decent cup run.
 
Beachryan said:
So we'll see. Do any of the Ole fans honestly believe if you could swap managers with any of the other 3 we'd get worse with this squad?
Click to expand...

No but we're also a very different club. Ole brings something to United that none of those managers will. We have history and a proud culture that the likes of City and Chelsea don't have. They can churn through managers every 2 or 3 years (Pep obviously not but watch them return to that once he leaves) and will keep the money up that will result in success. We're more of an institution and batting around different managers who don't maintain our culture etc just doesn't work.

The Moyes to Mourinho era was generally awful. None of the 3 managers 'got' the club. We were way, way off where we are now for large parts of that time.

I want us to continue with young, exciting British talent. I feel as though we should organically develop our team and add sprinkles of world class to it. It might take a bit longer but that's who we are. When Fergie retired he said we'd need to stand by our manager. He was and still represents what the likes of Busby made the club into.

The turn around in our squad has been significant, proper projects with long term, sustained success will need time. I don't think our progression has taken a ton of time.

Klopp at Liverpool after 100 games had a 54% win rate, averaging 1.9 points per game.

Solskjaer has 53% with 1.87 points per game. Klopp's Liverpool scored 208 goals to Solskjaer's 187. It isn't world's away in terms of building a project.

Now I'm not doing this as a direct comparison and saying that Ole will follow the same path from here but one managers had had fairly overwhelming negativity. From many calls for him to be sacked to constant accusations that he's inept, a PE teacher, stealing a living, I've seen him called all kinds of names and slurs by his own fan base. The other has generally been pretty revered and other than comments about his teeth, has generally been 'accepted' by English fans and the media.

The gulf in how they are perceived compared to how they've performed just don't match.

Solskjaer 'gets' United. Now I don't expect a fair amount of long distance fans or fans of other clubs to really get what that is. That feeling around the club, the ground, the mentality. Very few clubs are what Manchester United are and I don't feel we need the most tactically astute manager out there. Fergie wasn't. He got other people on board to help with a lot of that but Ferguson understood the club and he built with that in mind. Everything I see from Solskjaer is him very much working towards the same thing.

It's difficult to articulate exactly but all I can say is I feel like I have my club back, for the first time since Ferguson left, it feels like Manchester United again and to be honest, that's worth far more to me than a trophy is. I don't give two shits about the FA Cup we won't with LVG. Not really. Sure, was good at the time, enjoyed it but ultimately, was it worth what his time here was? Again, not to me it wasn't. I've enjoyed the last 2 and a half trophyless seasons more than the 6 or so before that.

Trophies will come, I've no doubt about that.

Appreciate many won't agree and that's fair enough, different perspectives and experiences but I'm pretty comfortable. I don't spend my days obsessing about the next trophy, I generally spend it looking forward to our next game. If I'm ignorant, cool. I'd rather be ignorant than constantly miserable like half our fans seem to be.
 
Andersonson said:
Whatever your view on Ole is, nobody can disagree that the club and squad is in a much better place now.

I often see that Ole needs to win this season because of his transfers and the players he has bought in. Dont you think Ole loves that? He wants that pressure - that's Man United.

Great thread. Agree with everything
Click to expand...

Good points and I think you're bang on with him wanting to win etc. I imagine he got in when he took the care taker job and to a degree was like "what the fu......". I think some people forget that he's been in so many winning United sides, under the leagues greatest ever manager and will have a strong affection for it. He's probably torn his hair out at times, we were an utter shambles when he got in, probably the most toxic and depressing I've ever known. Actually, not probably, it quite comfortably was.
 
We are above tactically inept Tuchel, Guardiola and Klopp. First part of the season is always a bit hit and miss. 7/9 pts is a solid start.

The performances against Wolves and Southampton could obviously have been better but a couple of away games with crowds back deserves some slack.

I don’t expect perfect attacking football every week (even City last year were grinding wins out for a time) but we need to deliver some better performances after the break.

Newcastle at home should be a comfortable win with good football (also I’m going to the game so I deserve it).
 
Fox outside the box said:
No but we're also a very different club. Ole brings something to United that none of those managers will. We have history and a proud culture that the likes of City and Chelsea don't have. They can churn through managers every 2 or 3 years (Pep obviously not but watch them return to that once he leaves) and will keep the money up that will result in success. We're more of an institution and batting around different managers who don't maintain our culture etc just doesn't work.

The Moyes to Mourinho era was generally awful. None of the 3 managers 'got' the club. We were way, way off where we are now for large parts of that time.

I want us to continue with young, exciting British talent. I feel as though we should organically develop our team and add sprinkles of world class to it. It might take a bit longer but that's who we are. When Fergie retired he said we'd need to stand by our manager. He was and still represents what the likes of Busby made the club into.

The turn around in our squad has been significant, proper projects with long term, sustained success will need time. I don't think our progression has taken a ton of time.

Klopp at Liverpool after 100 games had a 54% win rate, averaging 1.9 points per game.

Solskjaer has 53% with 1.87 points per game. Klopp's Liverpool scored 208 goals to Solskjaer's 187. It isn't world's away in terms of building a project.

Now I'm not doing this as a direct comparison and saying that Ole will follow the same path from here but one managers had had fairly overwhelming negativity. From many calls for him to be sacked to constant accusations that he's inept, a PE teacher, stealing a living, I've seen him called all kinds of names and slurs by his own fan base. The other has generally been pretty revered and other than comments about his teeth, has generally been 'accepted' by English fans and the media.

The gulf in how they are perceived compared to how they've performed just don't match.

Solskjaer 'gets' United. Now I don't expect a fair amount of long distance fans or fans of other clubs to really get what that is. That feeling around the club, the ground, the mentality. Very few clubs are what Manchester United are and I don't feel we need the most tactically astute manager out there. Fergie wasn't. He got other people on board to help with a lot of that but Ferguson understood the club and he built with that in mind. Everything I see from Solskjaer is him very much working towards the same thing.

It's difficult to articulate exactly but all I can say is I feel like I have my club back, for the first time since Ferguson left, it feels like Manchester United again and to be honest, that's worth far more to me than a trophy is. I don't give two shits about the FA Cup we won't with LVG. Not really. Sure, was good at the time, enjoyed it but ultimately, was it worth what his time here was? Again, not to me it wasn't. I've enjoyed the last 2 and a half trophyless seasons more than the 6 or so before that.

Trophies will come, I've no doubt about that.

Appreciate many won't agree and that's fair enough, different perspectives and experiences but I'm pretty comfortable. I don't spend my days obsessing about the next trophy, I generally spend it looking forward to our next game. If I'm ignorant, cool. I'd rather be ignorant than constantly miserable like half our fans seem to be.
Click to expand...

It’s worth remembering that Brendan Rodgers was sacked to bring in Klopp. Their styles are not a million miles away from each other and as we know Rodgers is a very good coach. So Klopp did have something to build on.

Whereas Ole has had to turn around an oil tanker. We had nothing but negative football for years. A slow physical team built for Mourinho. It’s night and day. The obvious point is that should Ole not succeed and get fired we need to ensure the next man is playing at least somewhat similarly. Conte and Simeone for example should be nowhere near the job.
 
It's a very good post, some will just or have a preconceived idea about Ole they just dont like him. I think he can be more positive in some games, in others hes been spot on. Ie the City games. I realy do think he is to nice at times, I would love to see him giving the players official etc a bit of stick even just to get some frustration out in games. I think some players react to it.
 
Fox outside the box said:
No but we're also a very different club. Ole brings something to United that none of those managers will. We have history and a proud culture that the likes of City and Chelsea don't have. They can churn through managers every 2 or 3 years (Pep obviously not but watch them return to that once he leaves) and will keep the money up that will result in success. We're more of an institution and batting around different managers who don't maintain our culture etc just doesn't work.

The Moyes to Mourinho era was generally awful. None of the 3 managers 'got' the club. We were way, way off where we are now for large parts of that time.

I want us to continue with young, exciting British talent. I feel as though we should organically develop our team and add sprinkles of world class to it. It might take a bit longer but that's who we are. When Fergie retired he said we'd need to stand by our manager. He was and still represents what the likes of Busby made the club into.

The turn around in our squad has been significant, proper projects with long term, sustained success will need time. I don't think our progression has taken a ton of time.

Klopp at Liverpool after 100 games had a 54% win rate, averaging 1.9 points per game.

Solskjaer has 53% with 1.87 points per game. Klopp's Liverpool scored 208 goals to Solskjaer's 187. It isn't world's away in terms of building a project.

Now I'm not doing this as a direct comparison and saying that Ole will follow the same path from here but one managers had had fairly overwhelming negativity. From many calls for him to be sacked to constant accusations that he's inept, a PE teacher, stealing a living, I've seen him called all kinds of names and slurs by his own fan base. The other has generally been pretty revered and other than comments about his teeth, has generally been 'accepted' by English fans and the media.

The gulf in how they are perceived compared to how they've performed just don't match.

Solskjaer 'gets' United. Now I don't expect a fair amount of long distance fans or fans of other clubs to really get what that is. That feeling around the club, the ground, the mentality. Very few clubs are what Manchester United are and I don't feel we need the most tactically astute manager out there. Fergie wasn't. He got other people on board to help with a lot of that but Ferguson understood the club and he built with that in mind. Everything I see from Solskjaer is him very much working towards the same thing.

It's difficult to articulate exactly but all I can say is I feel like I have my club back, for the first time since Ferguson left, it feels like Manchester United again and to be honest, that's worth far more to me than a trophy is. I don't give two shits about the FA Cup we won't with LVG. Not really. Sure, was good at the time, enjoyed it but ultimately, was it worth what his time here was? Again, not to me it wasn't. I've enjoyed the last 2 and a half trophyless seasons more than the 6 or so before that.

Trophies will come, I've no doubt about that.

Appreciate many won't agree and that's fair enough, different perspectives and experiences but I'm pretty comfortable. I don't spend my days obsessing about the next trophy, I generally spend it looking forward to our next game. If I'm ignorant, cool. I'd rather be ignorant than constantly miserable like half our fans seem to be.
Click to expand...

This is one of the most self indulgent posts I’ve ever read on here. That really takes some doing.
 
For me, the Ole debate is pretty tiresome at this point - our team has the same flaws in it's build up as it had in 2018. We progress the ball comfortably when an opposition team gives us space to work with, we struggle to get out of our own half against an organised press.

We already had a squad that was already an order of magnitude more expensive than 90% of the league last year, now we're stacked with some of the best players in Europe. In my eyes he's already proved he can't take us any further by continuing to make the same mistakes almost three years in to his tenure, but if he doesn't challenge this year then he's unequivocally proven that he's not good enough to continue. While I hope he proves me wrong, we may as well time do the debating for us.
 
It's as if people think that every great side just blows teams away with YouTube level play every week. It's bizarre. Our beloved 07/08 treble side was in 17th (!!!) after our first 3 games drawing to Reading and fecking Portsmouth with what is argued as one of the best front 3's in footballing history.

Fecking relax and have a drink. If we are playing terribly halfway through the year and in poor positions in cup/league campaigns then by all means call for Ole's head. But fact is we've withstood a lot of shite the past few years yet keep improving, and I seem to remember no one being happy with our team even after cup wins under Van Gaal or Mourinho, it was always that we were miles behind in the league and the cups were just a smokescreen for a much worse side.
 
Wumminator said:
I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. There seems to be some people who think that there are fervent Ole inners who can't take any criticism of the club. That is simply not true. What I (and others evidently) on this forum can't stand are illogical and stupid arguments. Here are some of them:

1) Ole is inept tactically
The fact Manchester United have just set a record for the longest unbeaten record is evidence of this. You simply can not go that long in the most competitive league unbeaten if you don't have a clue what you are doing. The fact that Ole has the best record against Pep of anyone who has ever played against him (as far as I am aware) should also go to dismissing that fallacy. If you want to argue that tactics can be improved, then I would love to read your posts. I don't really understand a lot about football myself. But the idea that he's completely useless is thrown around here a lot and it doesn't follow.

2) Ole is poor at changing the game
The simple fact that we have come from behind to win so often is proof that this is also nonsense. We gained thirty-one points from being behind at different points last year. That is insane. The idea that follows that Ole doesn't react quick enough or is poor at making subs is therefore silly as well. Are there instances where Ole didn't make the exact decision you would have done? Sure. Is Ole clearly understanding the pattern of the games and adapting accordingly. Well obviously.

3.) Ole has ignored the midfield problem
Not at all. He just can't solve everything at once. We are now seeing Ole assembling the most exciting United team for almost a decade. But there probably is an issue with our midfield. The problem is before this window there was also a problem with our right wing and our CB. At centre back we've just signed a world class defender (as far as we can assume so far) and means we now have a great back up option in Lindelof to rotate. Otherwise we were one injury away from relying on Baily and Tuanzebe. Sancho will hopefully prove to be an exceptional talent in a role where we literally had Greenwood and Dan James. Now of all the pressing concerns we had, CB and RW seemed to be a massive priority. Effectively we've spent 90 million this summer and upgraded both significantly.

4.) Ole has kept the deadwood around/we are fleeced for our player sales.
Now this one I get but some people have both these views simultaneously. We know there are some players in the squad that are not up to our standard. However, you simply can not get rid of these players for nothing else you will have a weaker position in the transfer market next time. I've seen some people say we should just accept a couple of million for Lingard and get him to West Ham. If you do that, you won't get £25 million for James later in the window. Ole has absolutely turfed out around 15 first team players in his time at the club who weren't good enough and now we finally look to have a squad of players ready to contribute. Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

Again, there are issues with the team. If you want to point out we often go behind in games and make it hard for ourselves, that is fair enough. If you want to argue that Ole should have strengthened midfield rather than CB that is also fair enough, it's just much more complicated than flat out saying he has ignored it.

No-one wants a forum where people can't complain. We just want reasonable posts and some of you have clearly decided Ole is not good enough and make up any old reason to justify your opinion.
Click to expand...

Good post. What absolutely baffles me is that people talk about Ole and all the good work the backroom team have done rebuilding the squad, but then even when they allow him credit for that, they complain that "we haven't won anything", as if we have some God-given right.

It is widely acknowledged that our squad was horrible when Ole took over. Everybody accepts thag. So then how the hell does it follow that two years later we're meant to be dominating some of the best and most complete sides in the History of European football?

We came 2nd last year! To a team playing on cheat mode! Honestly, you would think those of us talking about the "process" and having patience are defending 5th/6th place finishes! We're getting results AND building excellent foundations and STILL people are constantly whingeing. Honestly, why don't these people just have done with it and support City?
 
sparx99 said:
It’s worth remembering that Brendan Rodgers was sacked to bring in Klopp. Their styles are not a million miles away from each other and as we know Rodgers is a very good coach. So Klopp did have something to build on.

Whereas Ole has had to turn around an oil tanker. We had nothing but negative football for years. A slow physical team built for Mourinho. It’s night and day. The obvious point is that should Ole not succeed and get fired we need to ensure the next man is playing at least somewhat similarly. Conte and Simeone for example should be nowhere near the job.
Click to expand...

Yeah I honestly don't want Conte at all. I have no doubt he may well win something but it won't be all that pretty and he'll likely leave a bit of a shit storm.

Some people have really short memories, the team we had in December 18 was an absolute mess. Genuinely baffles me that there seems an expectation to have won the league since then. It's been less than 3 years!
 
See I say that I’m not sure if he has the ability to make us challenge which I feel is a valid point. He obviously has shown the ability to build a squad which has been top notch.

The problem I hate with the caf is if I say that I’m unsure of his tactical ability I get called a Ole outer or if I praise him for his subs etc in a certain game I get jumped on called a Ole in fan.

Im needer I’m a United fan than feels Ole has done a great job in building a squad which is our best on paper in years and meeting expectations while doing so but I have the doubts about him winning trophies which is the expectation this season.
 
RetroStu said:
It happens but it doesnt happen very often where a manager tells a player he has no future at the club, and said player decides to stay.

'So Jesse, do you want to stay or go because........oh you want to stay?, er ok cool'.

I could see along those lines with Ole to be honest.

Its just a feeling i get from the way he talks in interviews. It just makes me think like that. I mean i could be reading him totaly wrong, but thats how i feel.
Click to expand...

So in your own words, it doesn't happen very often where a manager tells a player they have no future at the club, full stop. Doesn't happen very often, but Ole is soft for not doing it? Every other manager in world football that has dross in their team is hard as nails, but Ole is the soft one? Got it.
 
Barnslig said:
So in your own words, it doesn't happen very often where a manager tells a player they have no future at the club, full stop. Doesn't happen very often, but Ole is soft for not doing it? Every other manager in world football that has dross in their team is hard as nails, but Ole is the soft one? Got it.
Click to expand...
Why did you cut off the ' and said player decides to stay 'part? , you are trying to change what i said.
I see you are from Norway though so you probably took what i said personally i guess.
 
RetroStu said:
Why did you cut off the ' and said player decides to stay 'part? , you are trying to change what i said.
I see you are from Norway though so you probably took what i said personally i guess.
Click to expand...

So if I tell you to feck off, and you decide not to feck off, that's on me?
 
RetroStu said:
Yeah but that was kind of my point. I doubt Ole did tell him he has no future at the club, and never would do.
Click to expand...

So you're criticizing Ole because you doubt he did what you believe is right? What are you basing this on?

And never would do, I believe the 14 (15?) players that have been let go by Ole since his appointment might think otherwise.
 
Barnslig said:
So you're criticizing Ole because you doubt he did what you believe is right? What are you basing this on?

And never would do, I believe the 14 (15?) players that have been let go by Ole since his appointment might think otherwise.
Click to expand...
I'm basing it on my opinion. None of us knows what said behind closed doors.
And the other option doesnt paint a better picture anyway, that he DOES see a future for Lingard here. Both bad viewpoints.
 
RetroStu said:
I'm basing it on my opinion. None of us knows what said behind closed doors.
And the other option doesnt paint a better picture anyway, that he DOES see a future for Lingard here. Both bad viewpoints.
Click to expand...

So a hypothetical. That serves no purpose. From what's actually happened, I would say it's been pretty clear we've told Jesse he's not going to be first choice here. He's 27 and just come back from a loan ffs. There were rumours all summer about a move away from him, I just don't understand what you want Ole to do here. He's under contract, and if no one is willing to buy Jesse out of it, there's nothing we can do.

If the club decides to renew his contract, or do something silly like that, then I am with you, but to argue that Ole would never tell any players their time at the club is over, is daft, as he's already culled heaps of players 'savages' like LVG and Mourinho couldn't or had no intention of getting rid of.
 
Lentwood said:
Good post. What absolutely baffles me is that people talk about Ole and all the good work the backroom team have done rebuilding the squad, but then even when they allow him credit for that, they complain that "we haven't won anything", as if we have some God-given right.

It is widely acknowledged that our squad was horrible when Ole took over. Everybody accepts thag. So then how the hell does it follow that two years later we're meant to be dominating some of the best and most complete sides in the History of European football?

We came 2nd last year! To a team playing on cheat mode! Honestly, you would think those of us talking about the "process" and having patience are defending 5th/6th place finishes! We're getting results AND building excellent foundations and STILL people are constantly whingeing. Honestly, why don't these people just have done with it and support City?
Click to expand...
It is widely acknowledged? That the team that had Rashford, Pogba, Lukaku, Martial and Shaw is horrible? Having Greenwood coming through and McTominay?

I mean, I am happy to agree, that many people said, that we were well under our capabilities but it wasn't a horrible squad. It was just mismanaged and bereft of motivation. But the job to bring in a new RB, CB or midfielder was obvious to see, same goes for getting rid of the deadwood which admittedly shouldn't just be the responsibility of the manager but the club itself. Ole showed a very good feel for the right people to bring in and he gave the go to the most successfull transfer I can think of in my whole time of following football (which admittedly is only around 15 years) in Bruno. The club has made some good and necessary decisions and all that led to us looking forward to our games again. Which is great and I am very thankful to participants.

But as soon as the machine is back on track and responsibilities are more defined, the more the focus should be on the core competencies of each part of the machine. And this is, where many are not fully convinced. Bringing in the right people, keeping the wage- and agestructure in check or setting a positive and professional mood shouldn't be stuff, the manager is needed for, these should be pre-requisites. So now the environment is set (re-set) we need everybody to excel in their specific areas and I hope, that Ole might be able to suprise us with some ideas and abilities which will suprise us once again. To this day, the indicators are ambivalent I would say. Some are fully convinced, fair play to them, and some are not. Doesn't mean, people that are more doubtful are full of misery and resentment. Not at all - I really like to make up my mind, look at stats, compare us to other teams and think of possible solutions to issues I see (that I consider as issues). Maybe that is the reason, why the notion of "the squad is still not completely there yet" is a bit cheap.
 
Wumminator said:
I've been meaning to make this thread for a while. There seems to be some people who think that there are fervent Ole inners who can't take any criticism of the club. That is simply not true. What I (and others evidently) on this forum can't stand are illogical and stupid arguments. Here are some of them:

1) Ole is inept tactically
The fact Manchester United have just set a record for the longest unbeaten record is evidence of this. You simply can not go that long in the most competitive league unbeaten if you don't have a clue what you are doing. The fact that Ole has the best record against Pep of anyone who has ever played against him (as far as I am aware) should also go to dismissing that fallacy. If you want to argue that tactics can be improved, then I would love to read your posts. I don't really understand a lot about football myself. But the idea that he's completely useless is thrown around here a lot and it doesn't follow.

2) Ole is poor at changing the game
The simple fact that we have come from behind to win so often is proof that this is also nonsense. We gained thirty-one points from being behind at different points last year. That is insane. The idea that follows that Ole doesn't react quick enough or is poor at making subs is therefore silly as well. Are there instances where Ole didn't make the exact decision you would have done? Sure. Is Ole clearly understanding the pattern of the games and adapting accordingly. Well obviously.

3.) Ole has ignored the midfield problem
Not at all. He just can't solve everything at once. We are now seeing Ole assembling the most exciting United team for almost a decade. But there probably is an issue with our midfield. The problem is before this window there was also a problem with our right wing and our CB. At centre back we've just signed a world class defender (as far as we can assume so far) and means we now have a great back up option in Lindelof to rotate. Otherwise we were one injury away from relying on Baily and Tuanzebe. Sancho will hopefully prove to be an exceptional talent in a role where we literally had Greenwood and Dan James. Now of all the pressing concerns we had, CB and RW seemed to be a massive priority. Effectively we've spent 90 million this summer and upgraded both significantly.

4.) Ole has kept the deadwood around/we are fleeced for our player sales.
Now this one I get but some people have both these views simultaneously. We know there are some players in the squad that are not up to our standard. However, you simply can not get rid of these players for nothing else you will have a weaker position in the transfer market next time. I've seen some people say we should just accept a couple of million for Lingard and get him to West Ham. If you do that, you won't get £25 million for James later in the window. Ole has absolutely turfed out around 15 first team players in his time at the club who weren't good enough and now we finally look to have a squad of players ready to contribute. Lest you forget that Young, Valencia, Rojo, Darmian, Fellaini, Sanchez, Smalling, Perreira were all around the first team when he arrived and have since been deemed no longer good enough.

Again, there are issues with the team. If you want to point out we often go behind in games and make it hard for ourselves, that is fair enough. If you want to argue that Ole should have strengthened midfield rather than CB that is also fair enough, it's just much more complicated than flat out saying he has ignored it.

No-one wants a forum where people can't complain. We just want reasonable posts and some of you have clearly decided Ole is not good enough and make up any old reason to justify your opinion.
Click to expand...

Regarding 1 and 2, beating City and coming from behind isn't proof of him being tactically smart or changing the game. His one real way of playing involves counter attacking which suits us against City but not other sides. That's why we've had embarrassing defeats to weak teams (e.g. Villareal, Istanbul). If he was that good tactically, he could adapt. Regarding point two, the team responding so well could just be a mental thing. I haven't seen anyone explain something he's actually done to change things. Certainly when it comes to subs, he usually refuses to make any before 70 minutes.

I dont think he's inept tactically but he's pretty one dimensional and I doubt we can win a title with that.
 
Cloud7 said:
This is one of the most self indulgent posts I’ve ever read on here. That really takes some doing.
Click to expand...

I thought it was quite an honest, vulnerable read. I didn’t agree with all of it but it was thoroughly rational and made a lot of sense.

You should appreciate it a bit more, I reckon; half of the imbeciles on the football forum here struggle to form a coherent sentence.
 
Kag said:
I thought it was quite an honest, vulnerable read. I didn’t agree with all of it but it was thoroughly rational and made a lot of sense.

You should appreciate it a bit more, I reckon; half of the imbeciles on the football forum here struggle to form a coherent sentence.
Click to expand...

Nope sorry I truly cannot take any of these posts that talk about United being special and unique among other football clubs and how it’s some special feeling seriously. A lot of it made no sense to me. It was just very self indulgent stuff.
 
Fox outside the box said:
Posts like this are part of the problem.

Do you even know what 'inept' means? Or are you just using it in a context you've seen and heard it used elsewhere and thinks it enhances the standard of a point because it sounds clever?

There are plenty of games where Ole's tactics have been well worked. I'm not going to break it all down, if you can't remember or whatever then just look at some tactical analysis on YouTube or something. Some of the systems he's implemented against the likes of Tuchel, Klopp, Mourinho and Guardiola as well as multiple formation systems are there, you don't really see it broken down on sky etc because they are actually really poor at analysing games. They are watered down and they tend to just point out the obvious. They rarely break down the off the ball pressing system etc but other people do, so go and check it out.

Every manager gets things wrong. Guardiola is frequently hailed as the top manager in the world right now and he ballsed the CL final up, as well as getting outdone by Solskjaer and other managers, it happens. Fergie got done over many times. Tuchel came unstuck against Solskjaer including with a PSG team with Mbappe and Neymar whilst we had a 17 year old Greenwood, Chong and Brandon Williams.

Off the top of my head, go and check out the game we ended City's 21 or whatever game it was unbeaten run. There are plenty of games out there which will breakdown Ole's tactics.

To say inept just tells me you don't know what words you're using and you're likely repeating a narrative you've read and heard so much you've assumed it's true because you don't know better. Just be honest and say "when I watch football I don't notice all of the tactical nuances". There's nothing wrong with that, most people don't. If you watch any fan analysis post game, it almost never goes into any sort of depth.

Personally I'm guilty of ball watching in a live game. It's why I watch the games back because I can watch for things rather than be focused on what might come next. I also tend to try and watch a few breakdowns outside of sky or wherever because they are generally better at analysis than I am.

I'm not even going to bother with the other points, he obviously hasn't just ignored the midfield problem, he's had certain limitations to work within and there's at leat a degree of sometimes having to pick one thing or another when you want to do both. In 2 and a half years he's achieved a fairly remarkable turn around in terms of the squad. It won't happen over night but we've gone from starting the likes of Lingard, Pereira, Williams, Smalling and Jones to Varane, Bruno, Sancho, Maguire and Cavani. If you expect a turn over of an entire squad in less time then that's your own expectations. I'd imagine we would have wanted one or two more moved on but you can't sell players if you don't have a buyer.

Who is all this dead wood? I imagine you're referring to Mata, Jones and Matic? Maybe Lingard? In a squad of 25 players that's hardly a pressing issue, is clearly a large turn around. In case you've forgotten, the likes of Young, Fellaini, Smalling, Darmian, Rojo, Sanchez, Valencia and Pereira have all been moved on since he took over as well as a host of other players.

I'm not saying he's the best manager in the league but your post is lazy and sounds like someone who gets their opinion more from what they see and hear than from objectively looking at the situation and trying to offer a rounded and fair reflection.
Click to expand...

I didn't expect a wall of text as a reply, and dare I say with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I'm fine with it though, we all have our viewpoints.

I didn't say Ole was tactically inept all the time but sometimes he is. If you've watched us over the last 2 years and the number of draws we've had against low block teams, I'm not sure how this is even debatable. He has surely got his high points, his record against the better managers in PL talk for themselves, but he's not a top tier tactical manager like Klopp or Guardiola or Tuchel. I don't think he has hidden this at all, where he has candid in his interviews about his job. I'm sure every manager have been made to look like a fool in a one off game, but you just can't compare Guardiola's over the top tinkering with Ole's tactical nous at all. To state it again, he's tactically inept sometimes. not on every other game he has led United. I think there's a big difference between the two. It's not a sackable offense, but what I said is not wrong. Feel free to disagree though. I'm just going to ignore the entire narrative in your head blah de blah because it comes across as overly defensive.

I'm glad you didn't bother at all with the other points but went ahead with the rant. I'm ok with a slow overhaul of team and I'm glad we are not doing a 'replace the entire XI' approach. But the fact remains that we have to use McFred / Matic in midfield while we bought VdB, Ronaldo, Sancho, Cavani and Varane, with Lingard still on the books. This is something that could and should have been addressed in the window, and I just don't understand keeping Lingard and VdB in the squad at all. Anyway, not everything in can be laid at the feet of OGS which is why I have said that he has at least had a say in retaining some of the deadwood. Not sure what Mata adds to the team, never mind there are only 25 slots in the team. I've always backed Fergie to carry players like Anderson in the squad, but Fergie kept winning while he did it. Maybe OGS doesn't have the luxury yet.

My point though is ultimately different. I don't need to prove my top red creds to you but I'll tag someone who has been consistently been critical of OGS but have said he will happily support him if he wins something (@Kush) . I've been in discord groups with Kush and he can attest to the fact that I'm shamelessly pro OGS. I'm more than happy to have him manage the squad in spite of these shortcomings that I can readily agree. OGS is the first manager post SAF to put United front and center in every issue. He subtly protects his players, doesn't mind telling nonsense to the press to protect the club and acts with a refreshing integrity. Having hated Mou's resign vociferously. I'm glad that OGS is the manager of the club that I can identify with. I've stopped posting on football threads mostly here but while it may be controversial, I'm of the view that OGS be retained a manager for a couple of years more irrespective of the results and standings (obviously, a caveat in place for dangerously inexplicable drop in form) as he brings tangible progress in other areas of the club.

While I understand that there is a dichotomy of people here as Ole Inners and Ole Outters, I'm a Ole Inner who is proud to own his limitations and will have him as the manager. I'll also happily state that If he wasn't one of my favorite players and a club legend, I will probably be more critical of him. If I'm a hypocrite, I'll happily tell the world that I am.
 
I think what is forgotten sometimes is that even those elite managers have their own limitations which come to the fore at times eg. Pep and his ridiculous tinkering in critical European games. Klopp until he signed Allison and Van Dijk couldn't organise a defence to save his life.

Tactical ability aside, I think for a certain contingent amongst our fanbase (and I'm not pointing fingers at people in this thread, more the mob on social media) the lack of support for Ole is personality driven.

He's not got the slightly psychotic genius vibe of Pep, nor the intense charisma of Klopp - he's just a fairly normal acting and sounding bloke which is why he gets described as a PE Teacher even when regularly going far in cup competitions, beating top opposition and finishing higher than the majority of managers in the country in league competition.

It's why the likes of Arteta early on were spoken of as superior despite clearly being average as feck. Arteta looks like a suave, sophisticated guy from the school of Pep - therefore he gets labelled as a superior manager by idiots without anything to back it up.

It's not to say Ole doesn't have his own limitations, but I honestly think some don't rate him because he's too normal. Same reason some people still speak of Van Gaal and Mourinho as superior despite them doing deep lasting damage to the club.
 
there are lots of things I could criticise him for (and do sometimes) but we're heading in the right direction, he's done a fantastic job so far

people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss
 
fishfingers15 said:
I didn't expect a wall of text as a reply, and dare I say with a 'holier than thou' attitude. I'm fine with it though, we all have our viewpoints.

I didn't say Ole was tactically inept all the time but sometimes he is. If you've watched us over the last 2 years and the number of draws we've had against low block teams, I'm not sure how this is even debatable. He has surely got his high points, his record against the better managers in PL talk for themselves, but he's not a top tier tactical manager like Klopp or Guardiola or Tuchel. I don't think he has hidden this at all, where he has candid in his interviews about his job. I'm sure every manager have been made to look like a fool in a one off game, but you just can't compare Guardiola's over the top tinkering with Ole's tactical nous at all. To state it again, he's tactically inept sometimes. not on every other game he has led United. I think there's a big difference between the two. It's not a sackable offense, but what I said is not wrong. Feel free to disagree though. I'm just going to ignore the entire narrative in your head blah de blah because it comes across as overly defensive.

I'm glad you didn't bother at all with the other points but went ahead with the rant. I'm ok with a slow overhaul of team and I'm glad we are not doing a 'replace the entire XI' approach. But the fact remains that we have to use McFred / Matic in midfield while we bought VdB, Ronaldo, Sancho, Cavani and Varane, with Lingard still on the books. This is something that could and should have been addressed in the window, and I just don't understand keeping Lingard and VdB in the squad at all. Anyway, not everything in can be laid at the feet of OGS which is why I have said that he has at least had a say in retaining some of the deadwood. Not sure what Mata adds to the team, never mind there are only 25 slots in the team. I've always backed Fergie to carry players like Anderson in the squad, but Fergie kept winning while he did it. Maybe OGS doesn't have the luxury yet.

My point though is ultimately different. I don't need to prove my top red creds to you but I'll tag someone who has been consistently been critical of OGS but have said he will happily support him if he wins something (@Kush) . I've been in discord groups with Kush and he can attest to the fact that I'm shamelessly pro OGS. I'm more than happy to have him manage the squad in spite of these shortcomings that I can readily agree. OGS is the first manager post SAF to put United front and center in every issue. He subtly protects his players, doesn't mind telling nonsense to the press to protect the club and acts with a refreshing integrity. Having hated Mou's resign vociferously. I'm glad that OGS is the manager of the club that I can identify with. I've stopped posting on football threads mostly here but while it may be controversial, I'm of the view that OGS be retained a manager for a couple of years more irrespective of the results and standings (obviously, a caveat in place for dangerously inexplicable drop in form) as he brings tangible progress in other areas of the club.

While I understand that there is a dichotomy of people here as Ole Inners and Ole Outters, I'm a Ole Inner who is proud to own his limitations and will have him as the manager. I'll also happily state that If he wasn't one of my favorite players and a club legend, I will probably be more critical of him. If I'm a hypocrite, I'll happily tell the world that I am.
Click to expand...

Really good reply, I should have been clearer in that I wasn't specifically ranting about your post, more the wider issue of him being written off as useless etc. Your last paragraph is pretty much on the money with where I am.

Apologies if the attitude came across bad, I don't typically interact on forums, I type as I hear things in my head and my tone wasn't directed that way, I feel this conversation would have been very amicable face to face in all fairness.

Appreciate the reply though, can't really disagree with it.
 
Tarrou said:
people act like managing a massive football club is a piece of piss
Click to expand...

Of course it is. You just sign any one of a dozen midfielders that people like and hire a coach that someone has heard of. That will solve all of our problems
 
You must log in or register to reply here.