Solkjaer's legacy.
Can you ever imagine this group of players being good in possession?
- Thread starter Idxomer
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No way. There are too many players who are too hopeless and not secure on the ball to ever accomplish a consistent and good possession football.
They cannot do what Rangnick likes either.. pressing and counter-pressing!!The irony if we get Ten Haag and Donny leaves in summer
McFred is a difficult base to play possession football from, I don't think Ragnick is really bothered about possession either so probably not this season!
Ive no hope this group will ever be anything remotely resembling a competent team
Good in possession of a Football or Class A drugs?
To be honest I doubt our current midfielders would particularly good with either.
To be honest I doubt our current midfielders would particularly good with either.
The irony if we get Ten Haag and Donny leaves in summer
McFred is a difficult base to play possession football from, I don't think Ragnick is really bothered about possession either so probably not this season!
I keep reading McFred is a difficult base to play possession.
Did we keep possession against Leicester when Matic and Pogba played?
Did we keep possession against Young boys with Donny and Mata?
Did we keep possession against Wolves with Matic and McTominay?
But yes, lets put all the blame on McFred because its a narrative.
Lets forget about how Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani cannot keep the ball. This is not a problem based on 2 players, its literally every player who can;t keep possession.
DDG is smashing the ball out of play every other kick.
It would help if we had a manager that actually wants to play that way and pick players suited for it. It's hard to for our players to become good in possession and control matches when our current manager and last 2 seem more focused on getting from a to b as quickly as possible with counter attacking type football and it has shown in their preference of how they set up and the players they pick. Your not going to have possession based football with the likes of rashford, bissaka and bruno playing as an attacking midfielder with mcfred behind him
I like both Fred and McT but neither is that great in possession, I don't think that is a crazy take and our tactics don't really focus on possession either.
They can keep possession alright when the stadium is empty and it's more like a training game. They have the talent, pretty sure its a mental thing.
I agree but neither is Greenwood, Cavani, Rashford. Its really frustrating watch us play when we cant string 3/4 passes under pressure.
Our tactics may not focus on possession but lets not get it twisted, we cannot be dominated by every team in the PL.
I hope it's a temporary issue given the players are new to the system. There were moments we looked decent where we'd play out from the back, work it round their initial press, get a bit of space on one side and then immediately go for long diagonal ball to Rashford or Greenwood - that's clearly one of Ragnick's ideas so far. That kind of play isn't going to get you good possession stats though and if you were to pick 2 deeper lying CMs to tick possession over, keep the simple passes going and have minimal individual errors, McFred would not be top of anyone's list.
McFred are a big issue, I agree because they can only find a simple pass when they do keep the ball. I have watched players like Rodri, Kovacic and the like where they play inbetween the lines .
We need to do something about the players not keeping possession.
For various reasons, McFred has been our ultimate midfield duo. It's what who we all think about when we have our current CM in imagination. Any positive change in football has to start by breaking this duo for me.
There ain't no way forward with them starting consistently (plus a lot of other changes)
IMO it’s not a question of technical ability (unless your talking about challenging for the league, we need several players in that case).
We already have skilful players to be doing better than we are. The issue is the team moral ,work rate and chemistry.
The reasons for this have already been detailed in countless threads but in brief. The board and previous manager have created a really bad atmosphere in terms of job satisfaction amongst the players and set low standards. At this point, we need to replace the majority of the squad as they either aren’t good enough or their salary and attitude is causing issues for the team moral.
We already have skilful players to be doing better than we are. The issue is the team moral ,work rate and chemistry.
The reasons for this have already been detailed in countless threads but in brief. The board and previous manager have created a really bad atmosphere in terms of job satisfaction amongst the players and set low standards. At this point, we need to replace the majority of the squad as they either aren’t good enough or their salary and attitude is causing issues for the team moral.
Our midfield, forwards, and wide players are technically too weak to play possession football.
The Donny/Mata one is a bit disingenuous since it was a second string team and some kids in a dead rubber. If they had been surrounded by the rest of the first choice XI you don't know how it plays out.
The people here expecting posession-based and free flowing football are in for a big disappointment.
Yes, the current players aren't good enough anyway to properly execute it but the main 'problem' is that Rangnick does not value posession at all. It's all about fast transitions and winning the ball back high up the pitch. Losing possession is not regarded as a problem in most cases, quite the opposite in fact, if the press works well. There will be no keeping the ball - the only thing that will improve is transitions and the press. It's very similar to Klopp's tactics. In fact Liverpool was terrible in possession in his first full three seasons, they only began improving in possession recently but are way behind Chelsea and especially City. However, they were really good at fast counter attacks and pressing. If you execute this well, having little possession itself is not that big of a problem, at least not in the short-term.
Yes, the current players aren't good enough anyway to properly execute it but the main 'problem' is that Rangnick does not value posession at all. It's all about fast transitions and winning the ball back high up the pitch. Losing possession is not regarded as a problem in most cases, quite the opposite in fact, if the press works well. There will be no keeping the ball - the only thing that will improve is transitions and the press. It's very similar to Klopp's tactics. In fact Liverpool was terrible in possession in his first full three seasons, they only began improving in possession recently but are way behind Chelsea and especially City. However, they were really good at fast counter attacks and pressing. If you execute this well, having little possession itself is not that big of a problem, at least not in the short-term.
having more talented players doesn't mean you can do better than Ajax at their game. The Ajax squad is full of players that can fit in the system or can be trained to fit into the system. That's the reason Ajax does well, besides of course the whole academy being focused on developing players for that system.
I thought all trams ran on tracks. Please take this in the right spirit.
But Klopp does value possession play. As with all good things there has to be a balance. Liverpool started out with heavy metal but their success came once they were capable of controllon games and mixing it up with good keep ball. If Rangnick doesn't value possession then I worry for his suitability to a top club.
That's not true, Liverpool have been averaging 60% and more in possession for the last 5 and half seasons.
The only season Chelsea averaged more than them was 18/19 when they had Sarri.
We need to play 3 central midfielders against teams that also play 3 Central midfielders.
Last night Mcginn, Ramsey and Luiz outnumbered Scott and Fred so often it's hard for 2 against 3 against any team in this league.
On current form it would be interesting to see Bruno dropped for another midfielder, I'd like to see matic as the DM and Fred and Scott as the legs in a midfield akin to Liverpool's own formation which by all things is a variant of Ralf's own philosophy etc
Last night Mcginn, Ramsey and Luiz outnumbered Scott and Fred so often it's hard for 2 against 3 against any team in this league.
On current form it would be interesting to see Bruno dropped for another midfielder, I'd like to see matic as the DM and Fred and Scott as the legs in a midfield akin to Liverpool's own formation which by all things is a variant of Ralf's own philosophy etc
I don’t think we were remotely trying to play possession football last night, and neither were Villa. Yet Villa were far better than us at keeping the ball and passing to teammates.
There seems to be a fundamental problem with the majority of our squad being devoid of the most basic technical skills.
Lingard did a lovely job late on of keeping the ball under considerable pressure, then managing to get it away to another United player. When it’s got to the point that Lingard is a rare example of being decent in possession you know you’ve got problems.
Hard to imagine, but could be possible. For all his faults LVG did make us good in possession, even with some fairly mediocre players. But I don't think Rangnick is that interested in possession, he likes to attack very quickly after winning the ball
Whatever happens we certainly need new midfielders. The most important part of the pitch for us and our current options are not good enough
Whatever happens we certainly need new midfielders. The most important part of the pitch for us and our current options are not good enough
Kovacic would be perfect for our system because he's rapid as well as being a generally good all round player and technical. We're too slow as a team, to many players like Maguire, Lindelof, Bruno, Cavani, Ronaldo and even Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, Shaw have looked sluggish this season. Our strength and fitness team has been a bit suspect for a while.
Kamara at Marseille is available on a free in summer, apparently he's asking for ridiculous wages but he can play that role and apparently Ragnick has enquired about him
I know but lets not fool ourselves thinking they are the problem, if fixed solves things. It really doesn't. We have seen different combinations that don't work. The only reason McFred are always ahead of the pack is because they bring energy and intensity that no other players bring to the team.
Matic is too old and cant get around the pitch, Pogba is very inconsistent and Donny isnt trusted. We need 2 CM's who can be control that area for us.
I dont know why but when I watch us play, it always feels like we are playing with 1 man short, its really frustrating to see how teams pass around us and we cannot get near the ball.
I really hope Ralf can see the importance of a midfielder and we get one.
If we get Ten Haag the first couple months teaching these players possession football will have people mistaking it for LVG football. They make basic tactical combinations look like a chore. Possession play has to be natural and effortless to be effective. Strikers with no link up play, midfielders with no press resistance and a playmaker whose first instinct is to lump hail mary balls to the front line.
We had 2 kids in the game, Elanga and Amad the rest of them were alot of first choice players. Maguire, Matic, AWB, Shaw, Lingard, Greenwood.
You have to impress with a weaker team to be able to get into the first team, like how Greenwood did to get into the first team.
It’s time we just played to our strength, which is our pace and counter attacking abilities. Ole made an error trying to make us a more possession based team without getting the right type of midfielders and fullbacks to play that system. Dalot has potential but patience is needed as he’s been greatly mishandled by the previous regime.
Sancho, Ronaldo and Cavani are the only attacking players who have the patience and decision making ability to play a slower possession based system. We do not have players on the same level in that regard. Bruno shows glimpses but his tendency to play the Hollywood pass always puts us in trouble. There will be more of the Villa type of game than not, so we might as well buckle up and get ready for the wild ride.
Sancho, Ronaldo and Cavani are the only attacking players who have the patience and decision making ability to play a slower possession based system. We do not have players on the same level in that regard. Bruno shows glimpses but his tendency to play the Hollywood pass always puts us in trouble. There will be more of the Villa type of game than not, so we might as well buckle up and get ready for the wild ride.
What LVG lacked was real pace on our front line. Our right side was a black hole. A lot of the times it was Mata playing out wide, which completely wasted his talent. Rashford and Martial were too young to make an impact, which is why we were linked every year with Bale and willing to pay the buyout clause for Neymar. I think now, we have more attacking talent than LVG had, which would make a more controlled possession based system more effective. Sancho stands to benefit with that type of system, he slows down play but he’s always looking to make an intelligent pass or play. We need midfielders but someone like Ten Hag could unlock Donny’s potential as well.
I don't know the technical terms but we can and should be able to keep possession. The problem is the gaps we have between the banks of players.
The gap between the defence and ddg, the defence and MF and the gap between the MF and the front players.
You don't need all players involved in keeping possession. Prime Barca had the front ones doing most of the keep ball with simple passing . Liverpool to a degree do the same.
Our problem is our MF don't show for the ball from the defence. Especially mct who seems to hide. When he should be calling for the ball and making space. Dvb on the ball is good but again hides. Magic is the only one who doesn't and you can see how he gets about the pitch, and to a degree Fred, but magic hasn't the legs.
Our wide players don't come calling for the ball instead waiting to receive and run, on the break is why rashy got so many goals. But teams don't allow the space now. Cavani does but ronaldo doesnt.
DDG stays pretty much on his line. He makes amazing saves but maybe he wouldn't need to of he came out more and supported the defence.
People speak of slow footballers, Maguire Mata even matic. However these players allow the ball to do the work. Quick 1-2's ball into space. We need fast players because we always look to counter.
Likes of Keane and scholes would scream for the ball fromm likes of Gnev and the back line. Our players simply don't do that and don't created the off ball movement and space to receive it.
The gap between the defence and ddg, the defence and MF and the gap between the MF and the front players.
You don't need all players involved in keeping possession. Prime Barca had the front ones doing most of the keep ball with simple passing . Liverpool to a degree do the same.
Our problem is our MF don't show for the ball from the defence. Especially mct who seems to hide. When he should be calling for the ball and making space. Dvb on the ball is good but again hides. Magic is the only one who doesn't and you can see how he gets about the pitch, and to a degree Fred, but magic hasn't the legs.
Our wide players don't come calling for the ball instead waiting to receive and run, on the break is why rashy got so many goals. But teams don't allow the space now. Cavani does but ronaldo doesnt.
DDG stays pretty much on his line. He makes amazing saves but maybe he wouldn't need to of he came out more and supported the defence.
People speak of slow footballers, Maguire Mata even matic. However these players allow the ball to do the work. Quick 1-2's ball into space. We need fast players because we always look to counter.
Likes of Keane and scholes would scream for the ball fromm likes of Gnev and the back line. Our players simply don't do that and don't created the off ball movement and space to receive it.
Don't know if it's just a Fred and Lindelof thing but they also always seems to pass it to someone when they have 2 or 3 people surrounding them. That could be to do with our tactics and off the ball movement. Certain players I think could excel in a possession based team, Greenwood and Sancho would be good in a Guardiola team, I feel.
If a motivated manager with a defined plan of what style he wants to play comes in, our immediate needs are RB, 2x CMs, and CF. Anything else would be a bonus.
Look at how Liverpool went up a level when Fabinho was added to their midfield. I'd argue that Henderson and Wijnaldum are closer to Fred and McTominay in terms of being workhorses who can run, press, tackle and then move the ball on to the creative players. Fabinho allowed them to have a really solid base that they could use to get out of moments they were being closed down. Henderson has also had TAA to his right to help out as well.
It doesn't help that when McTominay gets pressured he'll give to AWB who will give it away or Bruno who will then play a miracle pass. The team needs to recycle the ball more until they get towards the opposition box. Bruno needs to reign in his passes to the final third like De Bruyne does.
It doesn't help that when McTominay gets pressured he'll give to AWB who will give it away or Bruno who will then play a miracle pass. The team needs to recycle the ball more until they get towards the opposition box. Bruno needs to reign in his passes to the final third like De Bruyne does.
I'd say no. I don't think we have many very good technical players on the ball. Nor do these players have the work rate or intelligence to successfully play the type of football City do. You look at most of City's players, they all look comfortable on the ball, technically sound, and non stop moving. I don't think that this can be drilled into this current crop we have.
We definitely do some of this by design. We play passes into people in tight spaces who then just knock it back. I guess its meant to give the initial passer a few seconds to look up and a little bit more time to find a different pass. We just seem to end up knocking the ball back and forth until the opposition read it and get a foot in!
I have criticized Greenwood a lot but he is a player who can keep the ball. But he also tends not to pass. Yesterday many a times he could have passed to Fred or McTominay in midfield when he comes deep but opts the safer option by passing back. That slow passing has to go away and quicker and crisper passing has to be practised. I think the biggest issue was that neither Jose nor Ole played a passing game. It was to sit back and counter attack with pace.
So the club always appoint the wrong manager at the wrong time.
So the club always appoint the wrong manager at the wrong time.
We're absolutely hopeless with the ball.
I'm just hoping that they don't air the Premier League games in the Netherlands - if Ten Hag has seen any of us this season, he'd surely decide to wait a year and take the City job instead.
I'm just hoping that they don't air the Premier League games in the Netherlands - if Ten Hag has seen any of us this season, he'd surely decide to wait a year and take the City job instead.
Don't we have quite an amount of games where we have 60-70% possesion?
Good point about Fabinho. We're really missing a player like that, it shows in every game we play.
Second point I'm not sure about. In the recent past we've played like that, endlessly recycling the ball looking for an opening that doesn't come. I don't really mind Bruno's hail mary passes, because at least he has vision and is looking to make something happen. That problem seems like more of an issue with our front line, i.e they don't make good runs enough to catch the opposition out. We had a nice one from McTominay against Villa, but for the rest of the game they tracked the runs of our players fairly easily. I think we're still a team that's best on the break, and it's hard to change that into a possession team that waits for chances