How are McNeill and Hugill progressing in the youth? They were always 2 I heard good things about but found nothing in the reserves forum when I checked the other day. We obviously have issues right now with Ronaldo’s form, Cavani MIA, and 2 others being loaned out or unavailable. Yeah they’re still 18 - but could they possibly do a Rashford?
Bringing players through from our academy
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
Wow. I had completely forgotten about that. Had to google. Good goal too. Looks like Mourinho did a lot more than Ole to try and give youth some first team minutes. Ironically.
There'll always be highs and lows when it comes to blooding young players. How many are out on loan, a good or not so good generation in U23's. If a low point coincides with Liverpool or City producing two or three at the same time it shouldn't cause panic. It's just the natural cycle.
Overall I think we're about the best at this and its proved over time.
Right now we should/could have about six academy players in any matchday squad. Henderson, McTominay, Elanga, Rashford, Greenwood and Lingard. Important/big name players as well, not just making up numbers.
That's some achievement and over the next 12 month it looks very promising with the lads currently on loan.
Overall I think we're about the best at this and its proved over time.
Right now we should/could have about six academy players in any matchday squad. Henderson, McTominay, Elanga, Rashford, Greenwood and Lingard. Important/big name players as well, not just making up numbers.
That's some achievement and over the next 12 month it looks very promising with the lads currently on loan.
How so?
Mourinho brought in Mctominay and some minutes for Tuanzebe. Ole gives Williams and Greenwood plenty of minutes.
The other names mentioned got one game or part of a game under Mourinho.
Ole has done the same hasn't he with a few? Some minutes here or there.
Neither gave lads meaningful time beyond a couple of players each. Which I think is fine. Introducing two youth players in a three year spell is a very decent ratio.
Wasn't Harrop given his debut by Giggs?
That was James Wilson and Tom Lawrence.
It depends what you want to see. A token game at the end of the season where the player gets released at the end of that season (Harrop) or do you want to see a genuine attempt to promote an academy player as a permanent fixture in the first team?
LVG gave lots of youth players debuts, most of whom had absolutely no chance of ever being a regular first team player at the club. Rashford only got a chance because Nick Powell and Will Keane got injured.
Jose played Angel Gomes for 3 minutes 4 or 5 times and then played some kids in a dead rubber game at the end of the season.
Ole dumped Lukaku and Sanchez in order to start Rashford and Lingard and brought Greenwood in as a genuine first team squad member his first summer. He played Andreas Pereira regularly in midfield, picked Brandon Williams as a first choice full back for large chunks of the season, made McTominay a regular first team player and made Henderson his first choice keeper over De Gea until an ill timed bout of COVID let De Gea back in. He also gave minutes to Tuanzebe, Garner, Elanga, Shoretire, etc.
If anything, I think Ole's faith in the academy was his downfall. When you give young players from the academy a chance you expect 100% commitment, great work rate and players who would give everything to make it at their dream club.
Instead you have Rashford and Greenwood as the laziest players in the squad, being outworked by players in their mid-30s, stories of bad attitudes from Lingard and Henderson and the likes of Andreas and Brandon Williams who just weren't good enough.
The other young players just aren't ready to be thrown into the United first team right now, especially with the team struggling so badly.
Elanga really isn't good enough to be a regular starter yet either but he's an outlier in the current squad as someone who really wants to play in the first team.
He has? Who?
If you're going to count the likes of Harrop then this isn't much of a debate.
Mourinho: Tuanzebe, McTominay, Gomes, Harrop, Mitchell, J Pereira
Ole: Garner, Chong, unnamed cnut, Williams, Shoretire, Elanga, Diallo (since you're counting Elliot), Fish, Mejbri, Henderson, Mengi, Laird, Mellor, Bernard, Ramazani, Levitt, Galbraith
What a dumb thread.
Harvey Elliott as a Liverpool academy player
we might aswell count Ronaldo as part of our academy as we signed him when he was 18.
Harvey Elliott as a Liverpool academy player
we might aswell count Ronaldo as part of our academy as we signed him when he was 18.A few other replies have put together a list but I'm guessing just Chong got more minutes than Harrop and Gomes combined.
This has several reasons IMO. First, we don't have a plan for youth players to be integrated, our squad has been too big for years. I pointed out this problem years ago under Ole, but some wouldn't listen. Ole and Rangnick now seem to take the easy way. Mostly because they are not that good as managers, but also because their job is on the line. As someone said, we struggle even against Middlesbrough which makes it hard for them to take risks. We need a new oiled machine with a clear idea of how our football should be played, and also a manager with balls who take risks. We haven't had that since LvG. Both Ole and Rangnick prefer strength and pace instead of technical ability which also tells you why Hannibal isn't playing bot McTominay always are, for example. I would also put Amad in that category. My hope for next season is that we hire a progressive coach with a clear idea that can integrate our youth, because Laird, Hannibal, Garner, Mengi, Amad etc deserve a chance instead of payers like Mata, Jones, Bailly etc.
I completely disagree with you. Our problem is just opposite; we think that every decent young players deserves a chance in first team and long term contract.
Look closely how all top clubs do it; they promote only best of the best. They promote those for who they think that have potential to be a star in first team. And that is one player per year max. They are not afraid to sell others for good price or loan them if they can't sell them.
You mentioned Liverpool; lets not confuse giving a rare minutes with giving a true chance. Liverpool in last 4-5 years promoted only TAA and Jones. Elliot and Kelleher are backup of the backup. Liverpool in fqct sold last few years a lot of young players.
City have only Foden. Juve, Real, Spurs, Bayern, Inter, Atletico....who are young players from academy who play regulary there (promoted in last 2 or 3 years)?
United; we offer silly contracts to every decent player (Henderson, Williams, Tuanzebe) and then we don't know what to do with them. I bet that Chelsea or Liverpool would have cashed them long time ago.
In short; we must evaluate on time young players and start giving a chance only to players who have clear future in United. So more Greenwoods and Rashfords and less players like Williams or McTominay. Lets focus on talent, not at "hard working players". You can buy one McT or Williams for small money everywhere but for players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, Foden, TAA....you must pay fortune
Look closely how all top clubs do it; they promote only best of the best. They promote those for who they think that have potential to be a star in first team. And that is one player per year max. They are not afraid to sell others for good price or loan them if they can't sell them.
You mentioned Liverpool; lets not confuse giving a rare minutes with giving a true chance. Liverpool in last 4-5 years promoted only TAA and Jones. Elliot and Kelleher are backup of the backup. Liverpool in fqct sold last few years a lot of young players.
City have only Foden. Juve, Real, Spurs, Bayern, Inter, Atletico....who are young players from academy who play regulary there (promoted in last 2 or 3 years)?
United; we offer silly contracts to every decent player (Henderson, Williams, Tuanzebe) and then we don't know what to do with them. I bet that Chelsea or Liverpool would have cashed them long time ago.
In short; we must evaluate on time young players and start giving a chance only to players who have clear future in United. So more Greenwoods and Rashfords and less players like Williams or McTominay. Lets focus on talent, not at "hard working players". You can buy one McT or Williams for small money everywhere but for players like Rashford, Sancho, Greenwood, Foden, TAA....you must pay fortune
The only thing that Mourinho really got right was McTominay. He has been a god send considering our midfield issues and while he should never be the first name on the team sheet for a club like Utd, our success under Ferguson was built on heathy balance of Giggs/Beckham/Scholes coming through our youth system alongside the Nevilles/Brown/OShea and similarly ordinary water carriers bought in such as Fortune/Park/May etc.
Talent is important but you need balance. Liverpool have players like Milner/Henderson/Jones/Elliot/Keita/Origi/Gomez/Chamberlain...etc. none of whom are world beaters and regardless of whether or not they came through the youth system...are integral to what Liverpool do which is, as much as it pains me to say, play fuking intense and impressive football week in week out no matter who is in the first 11.
In that regard, when we have so many areas of the pitch we lack both quality and commitment, our youth ranks are the perfect place to bring though good squad level players such as McT, hopefully Garner, Elanga, Shoretire, Fernandez etc. So we can spend money on quality where we need it.
I do agree with you on the salary issue though. Too much too young!
If you compare us to Chelsea I think we have fallen behind which is very sad when you compare the history of bringing through youth at both clubs.
Chelsea currently have 5 first-teamers Mount, James, Chalobah, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi whereas we have Henderson, Pogba, Lingard, McTominay, Rashford, Elanga, Greenwood. This looks pretty even although I would argue Chelsea's 5 have potential to get better whereas apart from Elanga most of our first teamers are either on the decline or on the way out (in Greenwood's case probably never play for club again)
In terms of loans, Chelsea currently have Broja, Gallagher and Gilmour playing regularly in Premier league and look ready to go into their first team squad next year or be sold for profit. Of our loanees, Williams is in EPL and Garner in the championship so no guarantee that either are first team ready or will command a big transfer fees if sold.
For one position alone, right-back, Chelsea have produced Reece James and sold Livramento and Lamptey for a profit. We have spent £65 million on Wan-Bissaka and Dalot who are worse players than all 3 Chelsea players.
Chelsea were able to sell Tomori to AC Milan and Abraham to Roma for around £60 million. We have Tuanzebe on loan to Napoli but can't get a game so unlikely to get a big fee.
I like the fact Chelsea are unsentimental with their youth players, if they are not good enough they will sell for a tidy profit and reinvest in the squad. If Tammy Abraham was at United we would either still be playing him hoping he becomes a mega star, or we would have sold him for peanuts like we did with Michael Keane
Chelsea currently have 5 first-teamers Mount, James, Chalobah, Loftus-Cheek, Hudson-Odoi whereas we have Henderson, Pogba, Lingard, McTominay, Rashford, Elanga, Greenwood. This looks pretty even although I would argue Chelsea's 5 have potential to get better whereas apart from Elanga most of our first teamers are either on the decline or on the way out (in Greenwood's case probably never play for club again)
In terms of loans, Chelsea currently have Broja, Gallagher and Gilmour playing regularly in Premier league and look ready to go into their first team squad next year or be sold for profit. Of our loanees, Williams is in EPL and Garner in the championship so no guarantee that either are first team ready or will command a big transfer fees if sold.
For one position alone, right-back, Chelsea have produced Reece James and sold Livramento and Lamptey for a profit. We have spent £65 million on Wan-Bissaka and Dalot who are worse players than all 3 Chelsea players.
Chelsea were able to sell Tomori to AC Milan and Abraham to Roma for around £60 million. We have Tuanzebe on loan to Napoli but can't get a game so unlikely to get a big fee.
I like the fact Chelsea are unsentimental with their youth players, if they are not good enough they will sell for a tidy profit and reinvest in the squad. If Tammy Abraham was at United we would either still be playing him hoping he becomes a mega star, or we would have sold him for peanuts like we did with Michael Keane
We love the smell of our own farts when it comes to our academy. I think the early 90s has warped everyone’s expectations of our academy and we should view it as a very fortunate freak occurrence. We need to be more savvy in this regard. Some of them may be good enough to be in the first team squad but the majority of them aren’t for whatever reason, of which there are many.
We‘ve held onto Andreas Pereira for way too long and the perfect time to sell Lingard was last summer but for some reason the clubs and Solskjaer kept him and annoyingly didn’t even play him to follow up on that.
Hopefully Murtough and Ralf put a system in place where this savvyness is implemented, especially Ralf who isn’t wearing rose tinted Utd glasses (therefore not sentimental for Utd academy) and will happily say that despite some decent first team performances by an academy player, they still aren’t that good and we should sell while their stock is relatively decent and avoid giving them a £70k a week contract for just hanging in there with the first team.
We‘ve held onto Andreas Pereira for way too long and the perfect time to sell Lingard was last summer but for some reason the clubs and Solskjaer kept him and annoyingly didn’t even play him to follow up on that.
Hopefully Murtough and Ralf put a system in place where this savvyness is implemented, especially Ralf who isn’t wearing rose tinted Utd glasses (therefore not sentimental for Utd academy) and will happily say that despite some decent first team performances by an academy player, they still aren’t that good and we should sell while their stock is relatively decent and avoid giving them a £70k a week contract for just hanging in there with the first team.
We were lucky that we had (and at the same time) Fergie and class 92. It is something which happens maybe once in every club's history. Time to move on.
But we try to find in every manager new Fergie and in every youngster new Paul, Gary, Giggs, Beckham....
But we try to find in every manager new Fergie and in every youngster new Paul, Gary, Giggs, Beckham....
We've handed out some silly contracts to young players but I hope we never stop trying to find the new Giggs, Beckham etc.
Nothing sweeter in football than winning with your own.
Totally. Which makes this season one of the most painful I can remember, thanks to the Rashford and Greenwood disappointment (for different reasons, obviously!)
just hope anyone coming through from the academy doesnt read anythin on the caf. a couple of poor games and theyd be getting slaughtered for not being messi. see elanga as a recent example.
Yeah it's a stinker of a season.
Agreed, the latest CIES and Training Ground Guru reports clearly show United top of the table in terms of premier league minutes to Academy graduates. It would look even better if you added cup matches.
In addition...if you are a team with only 1/2 youth players in it to begin with, then adding another 2/3 makes it look it has become a focus.
If your starting point is 4/5 youth players (Pogba, Greenwood, McTominay, Rashford - plus Elanga and others at different points) then it's harder because you're running out of places.
Although I do agree, having Mata and others on the bench doesn't make much sense. Next season I think you will see Garner instead of Matic, Mejbri instead of Mata and Elanga replacing Greenwood as a regular.
It's all cycles however, and ours has been the most consistent since 1937.
Nothing has changed that much this season.
Which youth products have these nice contracts for just hanging in there?
Who can't we sell?
Firstly, the money isn't an issue...the vast majority of reserve team players aren't on silly money anyway.
Secondly, all the current reserve players are actually U/19's with no first team experience so aren't ready yet. All the others are getting experience out on loan, which by the way, lets the loan clubs pay them not us.
At the end of every season every player who is released joins another club. Sometimes we get a fee (usually unreported)...sometimes on a free transfer. It is no different than other clubs.
It's nowhere near 'our main problem'.
I feel nowadays we should not give minutes to those reserve team youths, but loan them out to test real adult football first and grow from there , like what Chelsea has been doing.
Man Utd is a top tier club and stress is immense. You have to be fully developed , physically and mentally and technically, to secure a regular place in the first team squad. So unless you were Messi, most youth players could not be ready right from the reserve team and shine in the first team football.
We are not Southampton and could not afford the results to keep playing youths and bear with their inconsistency. With our own example, we have seen Rashford , Greenwood , B. Williams, Tuanzebe , McT, etc., and they either:
Man Utd is a top tier club and stress is immense. You have to be fully developed , physically and mentally and technically, to secure a regular place in the first team squad. So unless you were Messi, most youth players could not be ready right from the reserve team and shine in the first team football.
We are not Southampton and could not afford the results to keep playing youths and bear with their inconsistency. With our own example, we have seen Rashford , Greenwood , B. Williams, Tuanzebe , McT, etc., and they either:
- could not get meaningful minutes because they are not fully ready technically;
- or they did play and continued to cost us points for their inconsistent performance;
- or mentally not ready and become self-inflated, and did not improve any further.
You sound like we have been keeping our Academies in locker. When an Academies are old enough, they would be loan out, or retain in our U21. If someone is good enough, even if there is absolutely no opportunities internally, I am sure he will shine on loan. This applies to Martial and VDB as well.
Do you think Richardson might end up at CR/Giggs level, had we given him MORE opportunities at 1st team? When you are good, good coaching only makes you better. When you are average, you are better off with mid-tier team.
Do you think Richardson might end up at CR/Giggs level, had we given him MORE opportunities at 1st team? When you are good, good coaching only makes you better. When you are average, you are better off with mid-tier team.
Who's our reserve striker? Any good? Worth a punt bringing him up for a match or two since the seniors cant score?
Jones hasn't blocked any youth team player from playing in the last few years. Bit ridiculous to put him in there considering it was Tuanzebe, another youth product, in his place recently who was replaced by Varane.
Also Garner wasn't ready until this season. He would have been eaten alive in the Prem.
No he didn't. Elanga alone got more minutes at the end of last season than 95% of the youth players Mourinho gave appearances to I'd bet.
Generally you are right but what you are missing is the opportunity cost being highlighted by the poster you responded to. Having Henderson and Lingard in the squad deprived us of £55m in signing on fees and £250k/wk in wages, in the right set up that's your DM signing sorted.
Instead Henderson has fallen into disuse which will affect his potential fee and Lingard is leaving on a free with some residual bitterness to boot. The management doesn't even trust any of the 1st team squad players with cameos but I'd like to think that if Hannibal, Amad etc were getting cameos one of them would have staked a claim for a bigger role like Elanga has.
It is between Hugill, McNeil and D'Mani Mellor, I would throw the latter in given his work rate and I think he would be well suited to a Rangnick system but given he struggled to get minutes at Salford this year I understand it is difficult to justify.
I don't really understand this post to be honest, in the not-too-distant past we have bought through-.
- Marcus Rashford
- Axel Tuanzebe
- Brandon Williams
- Scott McTominay
- Anthony Elanga
- Dean Henderson
- Mason Greenwood
All of those lads have been in and around the squad over the last few years.
Plus, your list of players Liverpool have bought through is a bit of a stretch. A sub keeper with a handful of appearances. A lad they paid good money for from Fulham. Two CBs who only got anywhere near the team because they had a major injury crisis and a very light squad. Although you have missed TAA.
I would definitely take the United list over that list, any day of the week.
Plus, we have the likes of Menghi, Laird, Garner and Chong who have all had positive loans in the Championship.
There's plenty to be critical of at United but I don't think Youth development is one of them.
I haven’t seen anything over the past year that warrants why Matic should play over Garner or why Mejbri hasn’t been given more chances, I feel the same with Tuanzebe not being given more chances over Bailly over the past few years.
We’re in a position where we’ve got talented young players like Laird, Jurado, Mengi, Devine, Fernandez, Garner, Levitt, Galbraith, Mejbri and Shoretire not getting game time unless sent out on loan so we can players horribly out of form (AWB, Maguire, Rashford) or on the way out (Matic, Mata, Lingard) or simply not ever going to be good enough when a young player would come in with no fear and could be a game changer.
We’re in a position where we’ve got talented young players like Laird, Jurado, Mengi, Devine, Fernandez, Garner, Levitt, Galbraith, Mejbri and Shoretire not getting game time unless sent out on loan so we can players horribly out of form (AWB, Maguire, Rashford) or on the way out (Matic, Mata, Lingard) or simply not ever going to be good enough when a young player would come in with no fear and could be a game changer.
I thought about this the other day. I would choose Mellor as well but I understand why he's not being used as he's not that good and will leave the club in the summer. Hugill has been injured for the majority of the season and McNeill is nowhere ready. I can list 15 players in the academy that is more ready than McNeill, so it's obviously hard for Rangnick in that department.
In the cold light of day it's obvious that our academy hasn't been producing PL standard players for quite a while. You can look at the movement of these players and see they invariably end up at league 1-2 clubs.
As a club we have seemed to taken the view that 'appointing one of our own' to coach the academy players is the way to go...the results would tend to suggest this is a fallacy which ultimately harms the 1st team and also finances, just look at tge revenue Chel and Liv and accumulated over the last 10 years from the academy output.
As a club we have seemed to taken the view that 'appointing one of our own' to coach the academy players is the way to go...the results would tend to suggest this is a fallacy which ultimately harms the 1st team and also finances, just look at tge revenue Chel and Liv and accumulated over the last 10 years from the academy output.
But it has and continues to do so.
Williams and Greenwood being the latest Premiership quality players it's produced.
I'd imagine with mctominay, rashford, greenwoods minutes under ole and early Ralf we were doing well compared to other very rich clubs.
I think us and Chelsea are the best in the PL. I don't get what the complaint is about. Chances are given at the right time. If it comes too early it could also ruin a young players confidence.
Have you seen our last two games? If they don't give you enough information why Matić is preferred, I don't know what could ever do the trick..
The problem with our recruitment policy for the first team is two fold: too many young players from the academy that aren't yet/might never be good enough and too many 'star name' players at the other end of their career where their best years are behind them.
City/Pool are signing players approaching their peak years, who don't have a massive commercial appeal but are there on merit and ready to win. We aren't bringing many, if any players in the 22-26 age bracket into the first team when you think about it, yet how many of city/liverpool/chelsea signings are in that age range?
The result is the disjointed mess we currently have.
City/Pool are signing players approaching their peak years, who don't have a massive commercial appeal but are there on merit and ready to win. We aren't bringing many, if any players in the 22-26 age bracket into the first team when you think about it, yet how many of city/liverpool/chelsea signings are in that age range?
The result is the disjointed mess we currently have.