Anthony Elanga targeted with racist abuse

RedDevil@84 said:
The only other solution is that the social media accounts be forced by law to have accounts associated with personal IDs, which poses a huuuuge privacy risk.
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In what way, exactly?

I can hardly get anything done these days (medically, financially, in terms of relations with my current employer) offline: it's all online, and it all depends on me submitting potentially sensitive information or allowing said information to be used).

Why would submitting - say - my national insurance number, or social security number, or whatever the equivalent may be depending on where you live) to Twitter be a huge privacy risk?

Because their security sucks? I can certainly believe that. But then - insist on better security. It's all a matter of nils and ones, no? If VISA can offer adequate security, why can't Twitter?
 
Ixion said:
There is not a single thing I said in that post about racism thanks. I was referring to far right as that particular poster repeatedly called out people for posting "lefty" views and I was highlighting that is naturally the most common type of views you would find on a United forum.
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"Lefty" views or just someone's political tripe? Left or right keep your political preference out of it.

Don't spread lies about me it's not becoming.
 
Bennie Blanco said:
"Lefty" views or just someone's political tripe? Left or right keep your political preference out of it.

Don't spread lies about me it's not becoming.
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You're one of the most pathetic posters I've ever encountered on here.
 
Bennie Blanco said:
"Lefty" views or just someone's political tripe? Left or right keep your political preference out of it.

Don't spread lies about me it's not becoming.
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You're on a pretty high horse here. Have you acknowledged yet that racism can't be diverced from its societal context? Also, @Ixion hasn't said anything about you, your initial exchange was with @Red Dreams (who anyway didn't assume all that much either).
 
Feck racists and feck the far right, too. :)
 
Cheimoon said:
You're on a pretty high horse here. Have you acknowledged yet that racism can't be diverced from its societal context? Also, @Ixion hasn't said anything about you, your initial exchange was with @Red Dreams (who anyway didn't assume all that much either).
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Yeah we've already established that the conservatives are racists, all of them. They are culpable of everything that's wrong in Britain, everything. Bunch of toffs that they are. Every Tory government have failed the UK big time.

I gave my boss an earful today for refusing to give me a pay rise. I called him all sorts I'll have you believe! I blamed it on the Tories. My boss was very understable, he's very much an advocate of creating a pleasurable working environment. He blames his bad days on the Tories as well.

I'm from Holland by the way :)
 
RedDevil@84 said:
There is nothing that can be done. People are scums and internet is almost anonymous, unless someone is ready to spend time and money on tracking each person down. It is just not feasible to track down so many people who can just ditch one account and create another in minutes.
The only other solution is that the social media accounts be forced by law to have accounts associated with personal IDs, which poses a huuuuge privacy risk. And also many individuals will decide not to be on social media, rather than give out ID proofs to money minded corporates.
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How anyone thinks social media shouldn’t be linked heavily and accurately to the actual owner of said account is beyond me. Being online should be absolutely no different to being a person in real life.
 
Bennie Blanco said:
Yeah we've already established that the conservatives are racists, all of them. They are culpable of everything that's wrong in Britain, everything. Bunch of toffs that they are. Every Tory government have failed the UK big time.

I gave my boss an earful today for refusing to give me a pay rise. I called him all sorts I'll have you believe! I blamed it on the Tories. My boss was very understable, he's very much an advocate of creating a pleasurable working environment. He blames his bad days on the Tories as well.

I'm from Holland by the way :)
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I know you are, but I have no idea how any of this responds to what I posted, or what this hyperbole contributes. (Who said all conservatives are racists? What does a pay rise have to do with anything, even as a far-fetched sarcatic joke?)

You could, of course, instead of your initial prickly response have argued that people focusing on the right only are wrong, and explain why you feel so. You're a bit away from that now, but it's never too late to rejoin a discussion normally. (Or decide that you're not interested in the topic if people don't discuss it with a football focus exclusively.)
 
A rather simple solution imo is whenever you make an account, you need to link it with a real phone number and has to verify it with that before posting. Won’t completely eradicate the problem but will be much more of a hassle having to acquire a new number to create burner accounts just for trolling when your previous one is banned/blacklisted. Less intrusive than real IDs/documentations.

It still needs more moderation from the SNS to work though.
 
Cheimoon said:
I know you are, but I have no idea how any of this responds to what I posted, or what this hyperbole contributes. (Who said all conservatives are racists? What does a pay rise have to do with anything, even as a far-fetched sarcatic joke?)

You could, of course, instead of your initial prickly response have argued that people focusing on the right only are wrong, and explain why you feel so. You're a bit away from that now, but it's never too late to rejoin a discussion normally. (Or decide that you're not interested in the topic if people don't discuss it with a football focus exclusively.)
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Sometimes you just have to hold your hands up and admit that you're out your depth.

I've outstayed my welcome in this thread.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
In what way, exactly?

I can hardly get anything done these days (medically, financially, in terms of relations with my current employer) offline: it's all online, and it all depends on me submitting potentially sensitive information or allowing said information to be used).

Why would submitting - say - my national insurance number, or social security number, or whatever the equivalent may be depending on where you live) to Twitter be a huge privacy risk?

Because their security sucks? I can certainly believe that. But then - insist on better security. It's all a matter of nils and ones, no? If VISA can offer adequate security, why can't Twitter?
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LilyWhiteSpur said:
How anyone thinks social media shouldn’t be linked heavily and accurately to the actual owner of said account is beyond me. Being online should be absolutely no different to being a person in real life.
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I agree. But the social media companies survive on numbers. And the more tougher it is to get on to social media, the less connections they will get. And social media owners have no motivation to make their business any lesser.
Revealing the identity makes vulnerable people an easy target to find
Then there is hacking, which social media sites are regularly facing
And then there are many countries that have govt which want to stop genuine criticism on their policies and they are likely to misuse this feature to harass people who criticize the govt.

This is what I can think of. And I am guessing there has been some research on the topic.
 
Ok so I'll try to not drag this discussion too much as I feel it's much more relevant in a thread about how to counter this sort of abuse and deserves it's own thread so I'll be concise as much as I can.
Jippy said:
I don't think people should be able to subject people to racist abuse or troll the families of tragedies freely behind the cloak of anonymity. If you yelled the n-word at Elanga in the story you'd get done for it, so why should it be fine to tweet that to him.
It's then for the CPS, courts or whatever to draw the lines. I don't think that's akin to China or Iran's control of social media in any reasonable interpretation.
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Again you are absolutely correct saying that it's the wrong thing to say and morally reprehensible but that's not the point I'm getting at , giving governmental institutions the power to control and regulate what's correct and what's punishable not only reactionary but also a very very dangerous slippery slope to move towards no matter how right it may seem at first.

I absolutely do not trust any government who are more concerned about amassing votes to just further their own agenda to regulate free speech so while not a perfect solution i feel that the best way to enforce freedom of speech is to just draw the line at direct threat of physical harm.

Also while comparing the censorship and prosecution of those regimes with the much more *free* for lack of better word western world , you can be never to sure of how fast democratic backsliding can happen. For example while there isn't much emphasis put on racism, there is a lot placed on public decency and while many people agree on the premise of those laws (due to being either very religious or obedient to the government) those very same laws are enforced to curtail and deflect legitimate criticism of government.





Smores said:
Your stance doesn't make any sense. Asking to link social media profiles to a person isn't in any sense a curtailment of free speech. Reporting social media posts to the police is no different to any other reporting of abuse in a non digital form.

There's a huge difference between controlling access and publication of information to making it possible to punish those committing a crime.

They should be handled as if they'd abused Elanga from the stands.
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Well we fundamentally disagree on the nature of hate speech laws and I don't how reconcile that but I did try to outline my views somewhat further up, also in regards to bolded I feel it's important to make the distinction between a privately owned football club deciding what they allow in their stadiums and public discourse forums ( yeah I know i know those social media sites are also privately owned, but I'm not a libertarian nut job so I don't think private companies should be able to regulate speech either , due to the massive role these sites play in political and public discourse and how they affect them)

Also the last thing I have to say is this, I don't see what this sort of action achieves either , these sort of man won't suddenly disappear and if anything it gives them the impetus to see themselves as even more of an oppressed group by the tyrannical government , oligarchy , evil corporations or whatever. To simply ignore them is the best course of action in my opinion as it will simply phase them out ( this sort of sentiment will always live on unfortunately but but hopefully it'll be much less prevalent in the future)

damn that's a lot of words!
 
Chesterlestreet said:
I'm sorry to hear that you've been a victim of racism but the part in bold is uncalled for.

I understand where you're coming from - saying "it's just a minority" can be used as a pure cop-out.

It's not my impression that this was the case here, though. The poster you quoted was replying to a specific question.
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He threw a bunch of percentages at the question then finished on how he ‘wasn’t excusing’ racism but.

Again, the figures aren’t even a good barometer as explained in my initial post, of that UK twitter account percentage how many like football? Of that smaller percentage how many are Manchester United fans? How many are non-minorities? & so on. That response served to minimise the action with stats that really don’t tell us a lot, that was uncalled for.
 
Jippy said:
It's just cowardly racist pricks who get off on the attention. FB or twitter should release their IP addresses.
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If I were a racist they would be looking for me in an entirely different country that the one in which I live.
 
I am not going to give Twitter any traffic but I do wonder about how many of these accounts are just troll bots. I am convinced that there’s a concerted effort to try and polarize people, unfortunately these young kids of colour face the worst of it.
 
Ixion said:
There is not a single thing I said in that post about racism thanks. I was referring to far right as that particular poster repeatedly called out people for posting "lefty" views and I was highlighting that is naturally the most common type of views you would find on a United forum.
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Look at thread title and look at the comment you responded to. The point is brining up political parties in an issue about race is unnecessary. Only serves as lowbrow finger pointing.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Sure, saying…



Is an unbelievably shit-take, even for this thread. Making out that abusing him under a more ‘worthy’ circumstance is ‘ok’ is disgraceful, and coming from a scout is very worrying - as are many of the posts in this thread.

We’re talking about using hate speech directly toward other human beings and there are multiple morons spouting ‘just ignore it’, ‘it’s probably mainly other brown people’, ‘it’s only a minority’ and other garbage that trivialises a massive issue - and something that’s clearly a massive issue to the players.

This repulsive ‘ignore it’ or ‘explain it away’ attitude is what let people get away with disgusting abuse in the stands for decades, and just like then, it needs to be weeded out.

It’s worth remembering in threads dealing with issues such as these that racists can’t speak freely on Redcafe, so you’re left with 2 possibilities…

1. They see threads like this and simply stay away, knowing that they can’t freely express their true opinions.

2. They post in such threads and covertly put across their views in a way that they know they can get away with (for now).

Food for thought.
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I think your reading into one part of my post far to much, and seeing things that don't exist. At no stage did I say it was ok, nor that is was acceptable in any situation. What I said was that I can at least see some some logic from the abusers point of view if the player was taking the piss and not trying, but couldn't understand people who abuse people over a single mistake. Now to be clear, I don't agree with their actions, nor abusing people, be it racial or otherwise online in any situation.
 
Just feck off, the fact that this is still even an issue in 2022 is fecking ridiculous and infuriating. Some people really need to wake the feck up to themselves
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Don’t give knobheads on social media the air time. An incredible amount of people are simply there to play the cnuty troll behind the safety of their keyboard and absolutely lap up the people who get offended.
Why anyone thinks it’s worth highlighting or discussion time spent on it blows me away, you’re giving them exactly what they want.
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This!
 
Wibble said:
Not all racists are far right but ........
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I understand this is purely anecdotal, but as a black man who lived in the south and a few of the most liberal cities in America many white liberals harbor similar negative attitudes towards racial minorities. Main difference is liberals believe it's a stain on society to openly express racist views and by public supporting the causes of racial minorities their conscience is clear. Yes, the far right are a bunch of knuckle-dragging racists, but from my experience these coastal liberals aren't that much better.
 
MackRobinson said:
I understand this is purely anecdotal, but as a black man who lived in the south and a few of the most liberal cities in America many white liberals harbor similar negative attitudes towards racial minorities. Main difference is liberals believe it's a stain on society to openly express racist views and by public supporting the causes of racial minorities their conscience is clear. Yes, the far right are a bunch of knuckle-dragging racists, but from my experience these coastal liberals aren't that much better.
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I agree with your sentiment. It‘s always lots of proselythising and theatre without sufficient change.

Also, it really shouldn’t shock people that this happens in English stadiums when it’s happening on the streets.
 
Pronewbie said:
Also, it really shouldn’t shock people that this happens in English stadiums when it’s happening on the streets.
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This didn’t happen in stadiums though (though it surely still does occur, just not close to the same level), it happened online, you know, online, a place where even memorial pages aren’t safe from trolls laughing and winding up the parents of dead children etc.
 
Big Poppa said:
Never understood this kind of take. The discussion is to put pressure on authorities to act and to show the poor kid some support. Surely you can see that.

How does everyone burying their head in the sand help anyone?
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The online world is a place where we actually have a fecking term for people who troll on memorial pages, RIP trolls. I mean, what the feck?
So it’s not burying your head in the sand at all, it’s understanding that this is much more likely driven by bored arseholes desperate for any kind of attention, than a racist mob.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The online world is a place where we actually have a fecking term for people who troll on memorial pages, RIP trolls. I mean, what the feck?
So it’s not burying your head in the sand at all, it’s understanding that this is much more likely driven by bored arseholes desperate for any kind of attention, than a racist mob.
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Although those bored assholes like you describe them are a different breed to extremists from the right/left, I'd still call them racist. I wouldn't separate them from the racist universe.
 
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kouroux said:
Although those bored assholes like you describe them are a different breed to extremists from the right/left, I'd still call them racist. I wouldn't make separate them from the racist universe.
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Probably, considering many spend their free time trolling even parents of dead children, I’d call them highly disturbed individuals. I’m sure if Elanga was white and openly gay, the exact same trolling wankers would have annihilated him for that instead. Whatever winds up the most.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The online world is a place where we actually have a fecking term for people who troll on memorial pages, RIP trolls. I mean, what the feck?
So it’s not burying your head in the sand at all, it’s understanding that this is much more likely driven by bored arseholes desperate for any kind of attention, than a racist mob.
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So racism isn’t actually driven by racists. The take of takes.
 
Ffs this again. What makes it worse is that it’s not surprising. As soon as he missed I knew it was going to happen. Has it definitely been clarified that it’s United fans? If that is definite then surely they can be identified and dealt with?
 
No doubt as usual if or when the people are caught they will say they are so sorry and didn't mean it and they aren't racist.

World is full of people who wouldn't say boo to a goose in real life but when they think they are ninjas who can't be found online they post vile things. Surely the time has come where to be able to share online you need to register so you can be held to account. Would weed out the majority of these incidents.

Wouldn't solve the racism issues obviously but would def make a dent in these type of incidents.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
I agree. But the social media companies survive on numbers. And the more tougher it is to get on to social media, the less connections they will get. And social media owners have no motivation to make their business any lesser.
Revealing the identity makes vulnerable people an easy target to find
Then there is hacking, which social media sites are regularly facing
And then there are many countries that have govt which want to stop genuine criticism on their policies and they are likely to misuse this feature to harass people who criticize the govt.

This is what I can think of. And I am guessing there has been some research on the topic.
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il be honest, if social media in the form of Twitter/Facebook/Instagram etc fell off the face of the earth for ever I really wouldn’t notice. People say it’s to keep in touch etc, there are other ways to do that. The negatives certainly out way the positives.
 
Something I don't understand. I used the term Pikey about fly tipping and was banned for a week from Facebook. I also said after a farmer friend who had lost half a dozen sheep to dog attacks, he said he would shoot the dogs and I said " and the owners too.". FB banned me for a week for inciting violence. Soif FB can do it, why can't Twitter?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
This didn’t happen in stadiums though (though it surely still does occur, just not close to the same level), it happened online, you know, online, a place where even memorial pages aren’t safe from trolls laughing and winding up the parents of dead children etc.
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You probably get into trouble with outward racism. I enjoyed my pilgrimage to Old Trafford pre-covid but can also never forget how I was randomly, childishly tapped from behind several times (on my back and head) while seated at Stretford End without anyone owning up.
 
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