That is just not true
Angel Gomes - Will he stay or will he go? | Contract Expired 30th June and he's left the club
- Thread starter TheReligion
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That is just not true
I doubt he's still growing?! He 19, nearly 20, he's an adult!
I'd imagine he's a lot stronger than his frame looks, however I'd also imagine he's hitting the weights in order to bulk some more like Ronaldo and Rashford have in the past.
I doubt he's still growing?! He 19, nearly 20, he's an adult!
I'd imagine he's a lot stronger than his frame looks, however I'd also imagine he's hitting the weights in order to bulk some more like Ronaldo and Rashford have in the past.
It is.
maybe heightwise, but in terms of frame and muscular development?
By 19 generally a human is developed physically, they have reached adulthood by that point.
But I digress.
I wonder if his agent had anything to do with the Barca links last year!? I reckon so, the old classic agent move.
The simple fact is we don't know how good he could become, but right now he's not playing for the first team for whatever reason, could be aptitude, could be talent, could be physicality, quite clear that something is holding him back.
As you indicated, he can gain muscle at any point. I think some of the concern about his height would be alleviated somewhat if he gained some strength (some people have described him as "lightweight" so I will assume this description is true).
I genuinely think the reason he hasn't played is that the coaching team don't think he is ready. I have always been surprised that people think there is some ulterior motive, given that Ole was happy to give Chong more game time, despite also having similar contractual issues for a long time.
I don't claim to be an expert but I did study this (a long time ago now!!) But generally a male human body is physically developed by 18, obviously there are exceptions to every rule and every human is biologically different,
Certainly a human can improve muscle mass but cannot 'grow' anymore.
If I'm wrong then I'll take it back,
Generally, a sports person has not reached their physical potential by 19. There's a plethora of examples for you to look at.By 19 generally a human is developed physically, they have reached adulthood by that point.
But I digress.
I wonder if his agent had anything to do with the Barca links last year!? I reckon so, the old classic agent move.
The simple fact is we don't know how good he could become, but right now he's not playing for the first team for whatever reason, could be aptitude, could be talent, could be physicality, quite clear that something is holding him back.
No, he isn't ready for the first team yet, but I haven't said otherwise. You've tried to move this conversation away from your crazy suggestion that Chong looked better in that video. I hope the you've actually rewatched it and considered that every single person that's replied to you has said how far off you were with that assertion. I don't know if that's you trying it justify an established conception or what.
Frankly, Chong might be getting a few more minutes than Gomes, but he hasn't shown anything to suggest he has the technical ability to make it into the first team. He's been fortunate we have been so short on the right hand side of midfield. Gomes has shown he has the ability to play at a top club, it's whether he has the mental and physical strength to do it at utd.
I Reiterate my point that Chong has more first team games then Gomes for a reason, the coaching staff obviously see what I see!?
If you could provide me examples of 19/20 years olds who haven't fully physically developed I would like to see.
I really hope Gomes makes it here, I do think he'll be a decent player for us if he stays.
I think you're right highlighting the mental strength needed, so many talents come through the ranks and get bigged up but buckle under the pressure.
Here's hoping you're right and Homes turns into a world class player for us!!
Just put of interest, you mention the lack of talent in the right, and I know Gomes is a number 10, but do you reckon he could perform on the right as well?
Granted this is similar to playing Mata there for example, but could it work?
That he's more physically developed and plays in a position where we have a dearth of players? And even despite that, he's barely playing. But again, you're digressing from your origin point that he looked better in that video. Which is absolutely not the case. Which is why everyone has disagreed with you. Ronaldo, Bale, McTominay, Rashford etc.
I very much doubt it. Not the kind of player who would do well there, not in our system anyway.
Cristiano Ronaldo for one.
That's bulk, which is exactly what I've referred to in my previous posts, Gomes is physically as big as he is going to get, he just needs to bulk, hit the gym, up the calories.
Other than Mata, we haven't had a number 10 have we? Lingard possibly, now we have Bruno,
I've think you've misunderstood physical development with bulk, which I explained previously to you. He's physically developed, he needs to hit the gym to make up for his slight frame.
As for the video, it's subjective but obviously the coaching staff agree with me currently, which speaks volumes.
We've got several players who can and have been playing there. We've basically played James every game.
No I think you've confused growth with physical development. These are not the same thing; not even close.
No, it doesn't. You have absolutely no idea how they rate the players. It's like saying Scholes wasn't rated to the same degree as Nicky Butt. But again, that isn't the discussion.
I don't claim to be an expert but I did study this (a long time ago now!!) But generally a male human body is physically developed by 18, obviously there are exceptions to every rule and every human is biologically different,
Certainly a human can improve muscle mass but cannot 'grow' anymore.
If I'm wrong then I'll take it back,
It's too general the way you used the term "physically developed." In a way, you would be right in the ballpark that the person's height/bone length stops developing around 18, some sources say 21-22. However there are many things still going on with our musculoskeletal system up until our mid twenties: epiphyseal plate closure, calcium concentration, the process of achieving equilibrium in one hormone's system, etc. that will limit some from gaining serious muscle mass before they get to that point. Also by definition, I think muscle mass belongs to physical development just as much as bone length.
Generally it's around 21-22 that a person would enter their peak physical state. Again all these number are highly varied so I would take them with a pinch of salt.
Sorry but did you see Messi in 2008? He put the fear of God in me every time he touched the ball at OT.
Also this game comes to mind.
You really cannot compare the two at all!
I feel that in that particular position he has to be a game changer and one of the best players in the squad. No 10 is the star position and at the club like ours you can't be content with being good enough like many players who played for us in that position. Lingard, Pereira, Mata, Mkhitaryan nor Kagawa weren't up to the standard, if we aspire to be the best we ought to have RM's prime Ozil in number 10. Gomes has the potential to be that guy but wether he has it in him to realise that potential or fade like all the above mentioned players is yet to be seen.
That’s pretty much it for me.
Although he’s technically very gifted he would still need low centre of gravity and explosiveness to be compared to likes of Messi, Zola etc. I don’t see that with him.
It is basic human biology that the Human Body does not stop developing until 21/22. At this point, natural growth development slows or stops completely.
Are you just talking about height then?
If someone as physically impotent as Juan Mata’s been able to have a successful career in the premier league, then Gomes who’s as tall as one of the leagues greatest ever midfielders in Paul Scholes should be able to do the same.
He was born and bred in the english game ffs it’s not like the physicality of the english game will come as a shock to him. He’ll probably have faced worse in the youth leagues.
If he fails it’ll be because he didn’t have the talent.
He was born and bred in the english game ffs it’s not like the physicality of the english game will come as a shock to him. He’ll probably have faced worse in the youth leagues.
If he fails it’ll be because he didn’t have the talent.
The discussion on his height is getting tedious now. Let's judge him on how he performs for the team rather than carry on with the same arguments again and again.
Then why isn't he getting more game time?
Manager does not think he's better than the other options.
We've never played James as number 10, we've played him up top through the middle but never as 10.
Who else do we have as a Number 10 other than Mata and possibly Lingard?
I think you need to accept that right now there is a big reason why he's not breaking through or broken through already.
Part of that reason is probably physicality, the other part? I'll leave that up to you to decide, but I know what I'm guessing.
Just watch the NBA.
You'll see the massive difference from their rookie year to their sophermore year.
Thats my conclusion too. Just not impressing the manager at training. But somehow either folks here think he is ready but not given the chance or something else is at play.
Either you're a WUM or you've never watched Gomes play, he's a talent at least on a par with Foden and Sancho, he just hasn't been given the chance yet due to his small frame.
According to Fred Garner really impresses in training but he hasn't been given a chance yet, there are other reasons for holding players back.
Okey, Andreas Pereira has played 37 games and managed to score two goals - one fluke goal against Brighton and one howler against LASK. Jesse Lingard has also two goals, in 35 games. And honestly, that's good payment if we look at how poor they both have been in general play. My question to you is, do you think Angel Gomes would have produced less or maybe more important; played as badly as them if he had played 40 odd games?
Foden is hardly well built, and is not much taller than Gomes.
I've never suggested Gomes is a poor player, merely that he's not up to the level currently of being in the first team.
I hope that changes and he stays and gets given a chance but you do have to ask yourself why he has barely been given a chance since Giggs brought him on for Rooney a few years back?
In that time we've seen Greenwood, McT, Chong, Williams all break through to the first team, but the player people are heralding as world class has had barely a sniff. That's not just down to 'small frame'
I seem to remember he’s had niggling injuries at key moments during the season. He’s also had other more established players ahead of him in the queue in Pereira and Lingard. Wether you think they’re more talented or not I believe that the manager has felt and valued their support and found them important to the culture he wants to spread.
SAF sides teams were more often than not the ’mighty ducks’ of the football world. The CL winning team from 08 is probably the closest thing we’ve had to a galactico team. Ole’s obviously heavily influenced by Fergie and I can see him valuing work ethic and dedication to the cause above raw talent.
I too was very excited with Angel's potential when he was 15.
But clearly he isn't impressing the management team as much during training with Jesse and Andreas starting or getting more opportunities.
And tbf even when he gets his chance playing for the 1st team, granted usually as a sub, he isnt exactly bowling anyone over with his performance to date.
Its obvious that the management teams and Angel's team don't see eye to eye on this issue. He thinks he deserves to start more often and is willing to risk walking away. The management team knows there is talent there and for all to see based on his academy performances over the years. But just isnt ready.
My question then is why do you think the management team doesn't think he is ready? I have already mentioned my guesses and opinions.
Based on the academy performance and potential, he was streets ahead of Pereira and Lingard. But like Williams, Greenwood etc, they made the dedication to improving their physicality to help elevate their game to the 1st team level.
Angel barely looks any stronger than he was back in the academy so maybe he gets knocked off the ball easily when going against the likes fo Bailly or even Lindelof. So the conclusion by Ole & team is that he just ain't ready to start.
Angel may think that skills along in this era is enough. Thus the gap in perception.
The whole he might not impress in training argument doesn't hold water anymore. Playing Lingard and Periera has been like playing with 10 men, if gomes is poor he can't be worse than these 2 jokers. And he definitely deserves more than 19 minutes of PL football given lingard and periera have been given 890 and 1454 minutes respectively.
I really don't know. Maybe they're protecting his size, maybe it's because he hasn't signed a new contract. I think, however, that he would have produced more than Pereira in a no 10-position if he had got all his chances. I don't agree that Gomes has been giving chances, he has started just one game in his favorite position. So I don't think it's fair judging him by a few short cameos, like West Ham away, and even City (even though he had a hand in our goal). Otherwise, he has been put on the left. It's like saying Scholes is shit because Sven put him on the left. It's possible that Gomes isn't good enough in the end. It's also possible that Ole and his stab is wrong. My problem is that he hasn't been giving a fair chance when his competitors have been giving chance by chance, regardless of their performances. And my gut feeling is that is Gomes's main problem with this whole saga too.
Why? Because you say so?
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I'm not saying James is a 10. I'm saying we played him basically every game on the right. How many games has he played there? He's been run into the ground and Chong still hasn't been giving a proper run out. He's opted to play Mata there when he likes to have pace out wide
He's been playing Andreas, Lingard and Mata there. He's been playing mostly James and occasionally Greenwood on the right.
I'll say it yet again. I do not think he's ready for the first team. Stop trying to insinuate I've said that. I haven't. It might make your point easier to make but tough. Reply to what I've said, not what you'd like me to have said. You're trying to make out that Chong being given a combined 34 minutes in the premier League somehow makes him more highly rated than Gomes. You didn't respond to my Scholes/Butt analogy because you know it contradicts this point you're trying to make. The same as the posts made to you about personal development. Which is exactly why you were trying to argue that a highlight video of Gomes had him being outshone by Chong making some simple runs and missing from 4 yards. It's really incredible anyone can make that claim seriously.
If he doesn't get a few chances in this period then i'm not sure he ever will.
We can now have 5 subs and a larger bench, so there's little excuse for him not getting minutes at some stage.
We can now have 5 subs and a larger bench, so there's little excuse for him not getting minutes at some stage.