Addressing two common trains of thought at the moment

Solius

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Thought I'd make a quick thread to just speak about two sentiments I keep seeing expressed in one way or another as I think they're wholly untrue and if our fans have this attitude we'll never get anywhere.

1. We allowed ten Hag to waste another £200m in the summer/We've wasted £600m on his players.

2. The squad is bad/How is he supposed to work with these players without new signings/Majority of the squad are not good enough

I'll address both at the same time as they feed into each other.

We have only 'wasted' this much money if the plan is to get rid of every single one of them. This includes Yoro who has not even played a game btw, or Ugarte who is our most recent MOTM and has played under Amorim. Imo the majority of the signings in the summer were 'club' signings and would've been sought irrespective of ten Hag.

I don't really think you can (for those that do) have the opinion that ten Hag was terrible and equally think all of our players are shit and irredeemable. If you truly think they were being awfully coached and asked to cover ridiculous spaces then surely you know these players are better than they've shown. In fact I think they've all shown glimpses/sustained periods of what they are capable of at one point or another, and I think we maybe got half a season of that with ETH before we lost our way again after the Carabao Cup final.

There may be some players where it feels more likely a straight up waste of money. Antony in particular and possibly Zirkzee but it's so reductive to just reduce it to every single player brought in, especially when some of them have barely played 10 games for us. Mazraoui for one has been excellent so far in an under-performing team and there are countless examples of previously down on their luck players having new leases of life under a new manager.

I just think these two sentiments are such a cynical way of looking at things. More often than not the majority of people on here are shitting on the players rather than supporting. Cause you know what helps players turn form round? Constantly being bashed and spoken about negatively. Even if you think they deserve it, hate to break it to you but it's not helpful if it's just straight up bile and agendas instead of constructive criticism.

And yes, of course we've been here or hereabouts before, but what do we have if not optimism and hope?

Isn't that what football is about? Even if it does end badly, would you rather be miserable the whole time and right? Or would you rather at least have some fun along the way?
 
Yeah, it's not black or white. And by most accounts Zirkzee was a Ashworth/Wilcox signing.

Antony was ETH preference, but the club decided to spend that ridiculous amount on him.

The players ETH brought in: Onana, Bayindir, de Ligt, Yoro, Martinez, Mazraoui, Malacia, Casemiro, Eriksen, Ugarte, Antony, Mount, Hojlund, Zirkzee.

Of those Malacia might fetch the same price we laid out given he'll go out on loan next season or prove his fitness this season. Casemiro will have a year left on his deal and Amorim may be tempted to push him out this summer. De Ligt, Yoro, Martinez, Mazraoui are likely our best defenders alongside Shaw. Eriksen is out of contract. Hojlund is a development project and he'll likely benefit greatly from Amorim taking over.

The question marks are over Mount's fitness issues, Zirkzee's quality, and whether or not the club will take a huge loss on Antony.

The money spent has mostly been under the leadership of the Glazers, with the astronomical wages for decent to good players on offer. Of those signed we spent a tonne of money on the wages for Mount and Casemiro. But this summer it seems to have been a lot more sensible, discounting caving in to Bruno's contract demands.

If we carry on with this approach there is no reason why we cannot fill out the squad with players in the 18-23 year old bracket for relatively modest fees and contracts that represent that they are neither super stars or Woodward signings.

The club have overspent on players under every single manager post SAF. It began with paying more than we needed to for Fellaini and giving Mata a massive contract when we couldn't really fit him into the team. And the same carried on under LVG, Jose, Ole, and Erik.

Hopefully we will actually push out every +200K earner this summer unless they perform like +200K earners.
 
No manager gets 100% of their transfers right, or even close. If a manager gets much above 50-60% of their purchases turning out to be solid regulars, they're well above average.

In addition to this, the fact that we've struggled means we're in a vicious circle, where new players coming in arrive to the worst possible environment for success and therefore can't play their best football. Look at De Ligt, he arrived to absolute chaos, a team that was floundering with an empty void in front of him where midfield should be & a manager being read his last rites. Is that really going to get the best out of him?

Of all the complaints I have about ETH, his transfers aren't really one of them. Antony was an unfortunate fail, because it sealed the perception that he'd wasted his transfer budget. Other than that though, his biggest problem has been injuries rather than bad performances. I think the new manager has a lot of material to work with.
 
This summers transfer dealings were very positive imo, Mazraoui and De Ligt look great, Ugarte as you say looks positive, Zirkzee the jury is out on but there's no way this group of players isnt able to make top 4.
 
The funniest part has been people ignoring the many reports and even direct Ashworth quotes about Ineos being in control of transfers this summer to explain that Zirkzee must have been an ETH signing because he is 'Dutch'
 
M Bison said:
This summers transfer dealings were very positive imo, Mazraoui and De Ligt look great, Ugarte as you say looks positive, Zirkzee the jury is out on but there's no way this group of players isnt able to make top 4.
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Yeah this. We significantly improved the squad this summer and I don't see anything Ten Hag-specific about those signings. Don't forget the coup of getting hold of Yoro despite Madrid's interest.
 
Totally agree on point 1. Really strange narrative at the minute around these signings. De Ligt and Mazraoui have been excellent and greatly improved our defence to the point we have the most clean sheets in the league and there isn't a word being said about it. 50m combined for them is a steal.

Yoro hasn't played a game and can't be judged at all but it was a massive coup for the club at the time and it really is still the case. Ugarte you'd associate with the new manager more than the old one and has excelled under him before and is doing well now.

Only one that looks questionable is Zirkzee.
 
forgot to log into your luckyscout account eh?
 
It is very difficult to asses a sacked manager's signings, especially when we were so poor for the last 1.5 years. It will be easier with the new manager, because if, as a player, you look bad under 2 different managers, then you are probably just bad.
You start to give the manager power over transfers as his reign goes on, at first you can sign 1 or 2 players wanted by the manager, but if the results are not that great and if the transfers don't look good, you have to step up and intervene.
ETH should of been sacked halfway during last season, but he wasn't...that's another discussion.
 
Solius said:
Thought I'd make a quick thread to just speak about two sentiments I keep seeing expressed in one way or another as I think they're wholly untrue and if our fans have this attitude we'll never get anywhere.

1. We allowed ten Hag to waste another £200m in the summer/We've wasted £600m on his players.

2. The squad is bad/How is he supposed to work with these players without new signings/Majority of the squad are not good enough

I'll address both at the same time as they feed into each other.

We have only 'wasted' this much money if the plan is to get rid of every single one of them. This includes Yoro who has not even played a game btw, or Ugarte who is our most recent MOTM and has played under Amorim. Imo the majority of the signings in the summer were 'club' signings and would've been sought irrespective of ten Hag.

I don't really think you can (for those that do) have the opinion that ten Hag was terrible and equally think all of our players are shit and irredeemable. If you truly think they were being awfully coached and asked to cover ridiculous spaces then surely you know these players are better than they've shown. In fact I think they've all shown glimpses/sustained periods of what they are capable of at one point or another, and I think we maybe got half a season of that with ETH before we lost our way again after the Carabao Cup final.

There may be some players where it feels more likely a straight up waste of money. Antony in particular and possibly Zirkzee but it's so reductive to just reduce it to every single player brought in, especially when some of them have barely played 10 games for us. Mazraoui for one has been excellent so far in an under-performing team and there are countless examples of previously down on their luck players having new leases of life under a new manager.

I just think these two sentiments are such a cynical way of looking at things. More often than not the majority of people on here are shitting on the players rather than supporting. Cause you know what helps players turn form round? Constantly being bashed and spoken about negatively. Even if you think they deserve it, hate to break it to you but it's not helpful if it's just straight up bile and agendas instead of constructive criticism.

And yes, of course we've been here or hereabouts before, but what do we have if not optimism and hope?

Isn't that what football is about? Even if it does end badly, would you rather be miserable the whole time and right? Or would you rather at least have some fun along the way?
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Is this just another "support the players instead of criticizing them" thread? Because this is a United discussion forum, I'm not sitting here with a megaphone at training telling Antony he's shit all week. Nothing I say will change his qualities either way.

As far as player qualities and who is good enough, my general criticism is the seemingly mismash of styles that the squad has been built with the past few years along with the fact that our attack (especially the star man) isn't good enough at the moment. I don't think all of the money has been purely "wasted" per se, just that it lacks cohesion and a plan in how everyone we've bought the past 3 years will fit together sylistically in a team.
 
M Bison said:
This summers transfer dealings were very positive imo, Mazraoui and De Ligt look great, Ugarte as you say looks positive, Zirkzee the jury is out on but there's no way this group of players isnt able to make top 4.
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Not enough goals in this squad to make the top 4.

Zirkzee was the wrong type of striker to sign. If there's any chance of making a deal for Osimhen work we need to do it.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Is this just another "support the players instead of criticizing them" thread? Because this is a United discussion forum, I'm not sitting here with a megaphone at training telling Antony he's shit all week. Nothing I say will change his qualities either way.

As far as player qualities and who is good enough, my general criticism is the seemingly mismash of styles that the squad has been built with the past few years along with the fact that our attack (especially the star man) isn't good enough at the moment. I don't think all of the money has been purely "wasted" per se, just that it lacks cohesion and a plan in how everyone we've bought the past 3 years will fit together sylistically in a team.
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As opposed to another one of those ‘let’s be miserable about everything and anything’ kind of threads which we seem to have twice as many of..

Anyway I don’t think it is. @Solius raises some valid points which I very much doubt the perennial moaners will be able to answer.
 
The squad isn't that bad. The summer's dealings will look really good with hindsight in a few months, even Zirkzee could become an important squad player.

We'll probably see a few players leave in the summer to shift a bit of the wage bill and then the priority has to be a left back, cover for the midfield to replace Eriksen and Casemiro and a centre back (assuming two of Maguire/Lindelof/Evans either leave or retire).

I think last season saw a ridiculous amount of weird/unplanned shit happen that ultimately cost Ten Hag his job.

Anyway, city will be in the National League next season playing a derby against Altrincham so a shot at the title might even open up.
 
I don't disagree with the sentiment except that on the first point, I think we have "wasted" money on what ETH wanted. Which makes things more difficult for the next manager.

Mount for example was an ETH signing. Bought for purposes no one, including Mason Mount, seems to understand. We've got 6 former Ajax players in our squad now and another 2 Dutch players, which according to ETH is a "coincidence" . The main thing this tells you (unless you are extremely naive) is that ETH knows how to lie.

I don't actually think "wasted" is the right word but I also don't think there's any getting around the club backing and spending money for ETH which then puts a handicap on any replacement who has different ideals.

Second point i fully agree with. I don't think it even matters if the players are good enough or not when it comes to some of the "criticism" they get. It's almost like people think it looks cool to be vile and negative towards the players. One or two don't help themselves with off field antics, but it's frustrating because quite a few need to be motm every week just to avoid another tidal wave of unsubstantiated crap.

I think people massively underestimate how much the positivity/negativity around a player or team can impact them as well. I'm not sure why as it's fairly easy to relate to. If everytime you did anything thousands of people told you that you were crap at it and gave you abuse for it, you would very quickly lose any motivation or belief you had towards not being crap at it.
 
I have a hunch that INEOS was already planning for Amorim to take over (perhaps at the end of the season) and being the club signings, they got players that he and ETH both wanted:

De Ligt + Yoro : if the plan is to move to 3 at back, then buying 2 CBs was absolutely crucial and a very smart decision.

Ugarte: Already played under the new manager, likely to be amongst first names in XI.

Zikrkzee: Could fit in as an inside forward, perhaps better than he fit into ETH system as he isn’t really a target man.

Mazraouli: we got an opportunity to get him and likely the new manager would be happy with it as he can fit the WB position.

In addition, ETH buys like Martinez, Casemiro, Eriksen, Onana, Bayandir would definitely be useful.

Ironically, I think the main task before the new manager is to replace the players who were here before ETH - Bruno, Rashford and Shaw. By that I don’t mean to sell them necessarily but find quality players who could replace their importance for us.
 
3. You're the new manager. Figure it out, dude.

Feel sorry for Ruby, but he's still young, just maybe he'll have the energy to work with the possessed kindergarden.
 
The only players that I would say were a clear waste of money are Mount and Zirkzee. Mount because at his best he isn't that good, had no clear place in the team, he was coming off an injury laden season and was on the last year of his contract. Nothing about his transfer made sense. Zirkzee made no sense at all because we needed someone to be a guaranteed goalscorer and he is the direct opposite of that.

Antony has definitely failed, but there was a clear rationale in signing him at the time. We needed a RW so his transfer made sense, he just didn't live up to what we hoped for, but I think there is distinction between a transfer that made sense but the player himself didn't go the way we hoped, like Schneiderlin or Sancho, for example. Antony and Sancho are still awful transfers overall, but I wouldn't categorize them as wasted money.

Most of the other players in and around the squad I think a better manager can definitely do something with.
 
Plenty to work with in the squad.

All managers like to bring in a few players of their own. This will likely be the same with Amorim - especially as his preferred formation includes wing backs. Whilst some of our players might be able to adapt, it seems probable we will bring in a wing back or two in the coming windows. This will inevitably mean some current players are moved on because they don't fit or they're too far down the pecking order.

The question is should the club have got rid of ETH in the summer and given the new manager more time (and resources) to shape the squad to his choosing. Personally I had no faith in ETH's tactics or ability to galvanise the team so would have liked to see him go, but then he won the FA Cup which complicated matters. Who knows what discussions were had so its hard to really comment. Maybe ETH talked a great game and it seemed like he could turn it around. Or maybe the new ownership/directors just needed more time to assess the situation before pulling the trigger. Maybe they had been sounding out Amorim but a deal wasnt viable in the summer. It's all speculation really.
 
Solius said:
Thought I'd make a quick thread to just speak about two sentiments I keep seeing expressed in one way or another as I think they're wholly untrue and if our fans have this attitude we'll never get anywhere.

1. We allowed ten Hag to waste another £200m in the summer/We've wasted £600m on his players.

2. The squad is bad/How is he supposed to work with these players without new signings/Majority of the squad are not good enough

I'll address both at the same time as they feed into each other.

We have only 'wasted' this much money if the plan is to get rid of every single one of them. This includes Yoro who has not even played a game btw, or Ugarte who is our most recent MOTM and has played under Amorim. Imo the majority of the signings in the summer were 'club' signings and would've been sought irrespective of ten Hag.

I don't really think you can (for those that do) have the opinion that ten Hag was terrible and equally think all of our players are shit and irredeemable. If you truly think they were being awfully coached and asked to cover ridiculous spaces then surely you know these players are better than they've shown. In fact I think they've all shown glimpses/sustained periods of what they are capable of at one point or another, and I think we maybe got half a season of that with ETH before we lost our way again after the Carabao Cup final.

There may be some players where it feels more likely a straight up waste of money. Antony in particular and possibly Zirkzee but it's so reductive to just reduce it to every single player brought in, especially when some of them have barely played 10 games for us. Mazraoui for one has been excellent so far in an under-performing team and there are countless examples of previously down on their luck players having new leases of life under a new manager.

I just think these two sentiments are such a cynical way of looking at things. More often than not the majority of people on here are shitting on the players rather than supporting. Cause you know what helps players turn form round? Constantly being bashed and spoken about negatively. Even if you think they deserve it, hate to break it to you but it's not helpful if it's just straight up bile and agendas instead of constructive criticism.

And yes, of course we've been here or hereabouts before, but what do we have if not optimism and hope?

Isn't that what football is about? Even if it does end badly, would you rather be miserable the whole time and right? Or would you rather at least have some fun along the way?
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Being right on the internet is more important than all this. I should be able to say "I told you so" and post 'ha ha ha" to the fools who didn't listen to the all knowing me.

On a serious note, I don't really agree with all these "support your players", when it comes to posting on caf. The match going fans get behind our players and our manager almost all the time. They boo at absolute shambles of a performance, occasionally, but it doesn't happen often.

On the caf, lot of posters come here and would type long posts only in two scenarios, if a player did an extremely good job or if the player did a bad job. If a player plays as expected, then there is nothing to discuss on.
This is like reviews on google for restaurants. Most reviews are only when they don't like something about the place. If the food and service was as expected, you are not gonna post anything.

Of course people also have their own thresholds. For example, it took last season injuries and the England call up, for the majority of caf to start posting to get rid of Shaw, else there used to be posts like "Agree he is mostly injured, but he is super awesome when fit, so he deserves the extension".
Same with Rashford posts. Some are done with him already. Some believe Rashy will be unlocked by Amorim or some tactics or certain players.

Also, people moaning on here doesn't necessarily mean they have miserable lives devoid of any optimism :D
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
Is this just another "support the players instead of criticizing them" thread? Because this is a United discussion forum, I'm not sitting here with a megaphone at training telling Antony he's shit all week. Nothing I say will change his qualities either way.

As far as player qualities and who is good enough, my general criticism is the seemingly mismash of styles that the squad has been built with the past few years along with the fact that our attack (especially the star man) isn't good enough at the moment. I don't think all of the money has been purely "wasted" per se, just that it lacks cohesion and a plan in how everyone we've bought the past 3 years will fit together sylistically in a team.
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I mean I literally talked about constructive criticism. It's fine to do that if you explain yourself. The amount of posts I have to reject from newbies that basically say 'X is trash' or whatever and noting else is unreal. I'm sure if mains posts got approved some would be rejected too. All I'm saying is some criticisms don't really offer anything, or are quite scathing/over the top. Criticism is fine in general if warranted.
 
TheReligion said:
As opposed to another one of those ‘let’s be miserable about everything and anything’ kind of threads which we seem to have twice as many of..

Anyway I don’t think it is. @Solius raises some valid points which I very much doubt the perennial moaners will be able to answer.
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You consistently seem to be dramatic about the amount of “misery” that many here have. No one has had fun recently but even then the majority of threads outside of Match Day are pretty balanced or logical in what is said. There’s just not the sunshine pumping you seem to always want
 
Solius said:
I mean I literally talked about constructive criticism. It's fine to do that if you explain yourself. The amount of posts I have to reject from newbies that basically say 'X is trash' or whatever and noting else is unreal. I'm sure if mains posts got approved some would be rejected too. All I'm saying is some criticisms don't really offer anything, or are quite scathing/over the top. Criticism is fine in general if warranted.
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I generally ignore anything said by newbies honestly. It’s either horribly misinformed, formatted like a tweet, or just an obvious WUM
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
You consistently seem to be dramatic about the amount of “misery” that many here have. No one has had fun recently but even then the majority of threads outside of Match Day are pretty balanced or logical in what is said. There’s just not the sunshine pumping you seem to always want
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I have to agree with @TheReligion. The forum has become increasingly negative and cynical of late, to unnecessary levels.
 
Valencia Shin Crosses said:
You consistently seem to be dramatic about the amount of “misery” that many here have. No one has had fun recently but even then the majority of threads outside of Match Day are pretty balanced or logical in what is said. There’s just not the sunshine pumping you seem to always want
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And you constantly seem to crop up being negative and complaining about those who take issue with it.. funny eh!
 
Right now the only player I would absolutely 100% write off would be Lindelof and even then a niggling voice at the back of my mind complains

Other than that I am happy to give every other single player a mostly clean slate, only mostly clean because if they do not pick up their prior dirty slate will be re-instated.

I was ready to write off Dalot, possibly one of the worst players I had ever seen, but unbelievably under ETH he improved 100 fold, if possibly one of the worst players I have ever seen in a utd shirt can turn it around under the worst Man utd manager I have ever seen, well then I am willing to believe anything can happen
 
Posh Red said:
I have to agree with @TheReligion. The forum has become increasingly negative and cynical of late, to unnecessary levels.
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I think a lot of fans are ungrateful these days. No one has had fun yet we’ve still won two trophies, beating City in one final, and delivered some top nights such as Barca in Europe.

It’s not what we want, or are used to, but the vast majority of other clubs could only dream of it.

Some need to think about that.
 
TheReligion said:
I think a lot of fans are ungrateful these days. No one has had fun yet we’ve still won two trophies, beating City in one final, and delivered some top nights such as Barca in Europe.

It’s not what we want, or are used to, but the vast majority of other clubs could only dream of it.

Some need to think about that.
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Then you and I have completely different mindsets. I don’t particularly enjoy supporting what was once an elite sporting institution that’s gradually become a laughingstock in the past decade and watch us flouder in ineptitude. Something like that is t going to make me sit back and smell the roses and say “at least we had a good night, that’s better than some clubs!”.

If that’s how you feel then more power to you but just because others don’t, it doesn’t mean they are “spoiled” or being overly negative, especially in the instance that we’ve probably gone through the worst 18 months of performances (barring a game or two) in the modern history of the club. Expecting fans to smell the roses and be happy to be alive after that is a bit naive, any fanbase will be a bit jaded after that.
 
Posh Red said:
The forum has become increasingly negative and cynical of late, to unnecessary levels.
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Because performances have tanked and standards dropped at the club. The posters have lot to to be negative about.

I think in general, the fans love the club and its players and want both to be of high standards. I find all this "support the players and the club" a bit of moral high horse, if not outright hypocrisy. Everyone moans about something or the other here. Its just what I moan about is not what someone else thinks is a problem. Just a difference of opinion.

Obviously there are outliers like posters losing their shit over Rashy doing some cosplay in his free time :D
 
Shall we start talking about the questions and responses of the OP?

Yes please.
 
Cloud7 said:
The only players that I would say were a clear waste of money are Mount and Zirkzee. Mount because at his best he isn't that good, had no clear place in the team, he was coming off an injury laden season and was on the last year of his contract. Nothing about his transfer made sense. Zirkzee made no sense at all because we needed someone to be a guaranteed goalscorer and he is the direct opposite of that.
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I think he could be good in the system Amorim wants to play.
 
RedDevil@84 said:
Because performances have tanked and standards dropped at the club. The posters have lot to to be negative about.

I think in general, the fans love the club and its players and want both to be of high standards. I find all this "support the players and the club" a bit of moral high horse, if not outright hypocrisy. Everyone moans about something or the other here. Its just what I moan about is not what someone else thinks is a problem. Just a difference of opinion.

Obviously there are outliers like posters losing their shit over Rashy doing some cosplay in his free time :D
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That’s why I used the word ‘unnecessary’. I understand frustration, but it’s reached nuclear levels.
 
Again. This wasn’t really about negativity. It’s about these reductive statements that are just catch all and ignorant. You can guarantee someone else will say we wasted £200m again tomorrow. It’s just not true.
 
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