11-53/8-11 | De Gea and Henderson penalty saving record going into shootout
- Thread starter Kush
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Oh well if it worked once in history then it's clearly the only way to ever win a penalty shootout. I mean no manager has ever won one by keeping the same goalkeeper that played the match have they?
Sarri also tried to do it against Man City in the league cup final but Kepa threw his famous strop (and then completely justified Sarri's call by letting Aguero's pathetic penalty through both his hands somehow)
I mean no one is saying that. But if you have a goalkeeper who is historically bad at saving penalties and a backup goalkeeper with multiple years of data suggesting he's elite at saving penalties plus an extra sub that goes unused questions surely should be asked, no?
Henderson is not elite at anything. He has saved a few penalties at championship and premiership level mostly for Sheffield United
That does not make him the God of penalty shootouts
De Gea started because he was the best goalkeeper and Ole was right to keep faith in him just like the vast vast vast majority of managers have done so in these situations.
All we have here is people latching on to hindsight saying we should have done this or that and it's pointless
I mean statistically the probability a keeper concedes some 20+ penalties in a row is so low there probably aren't many examples of someone sticking with that keeper into a shoot-out.
So you'd rather have a keeper who has been historically futile at saving penalties because the alternative played for Sheffield United? I'm not arguing that Henderson is some sort of penalty specialist, just that there's multiple years of data suggesting that he's at minimum quite good at saving penalties. Compared to De Gea, who might be the worst goalkeeper in the top 5 leagues at penalties right now.
Cech's record is better even before taking his vastly superior record in shootouts. De Gea is also worse than Paul Robinson - 11 saves from 64 penalties faced for DDG, 12 saves from 67 for Robinson.
DDG's career percentage isn't "shocking" at all. It's average, more or less - and similar to, say, VDS.
If you want genuinely shocking, look no further than the Great Dane. His career percentage is around 8%. And he never saved a single pen for United (correct me if I'm wrong).
(And yes, of course, the real story with DDG is not his overall percentage - but the fact that he hasn't made a penalty save in, what, five or six seasons now).
But given VDS' and Schmeichel's (not least) numbers, it's also evident that you can be a world beater between the sticks - and still be mediocre-to-shite on pens.
If you want genuinely shocking, look no further than the Great Dane. His career percentage is around 8%. And he never saved a single pen for United (correct me if I'm wrong).
(And yes, of course, the real story with DDG is not his overall percentage - but the fact that he hasn't made a penalty save in, what, five or six seasons now).
But given VDS' and Schmeichel's (not least) numbers, it's also evident that you can be a world beater between the sticks - and still be mediocre-to-shite on pens.
Of course you are wrong. If you are a United fan how can you ever forget our most famous FA Cup semi final victory?
Oops...
Well, I'm getting old - probably won't remember who scored the winner in Barcelona in a few years' time.
One save, then (a big one, granted).
Joel Glazer?
It was his body language that irritated me the most, I think their second penalty he just knelt limply forward! He did it on another I think as well.
Even if you're not confident at least go full stretch to the ground to give a wider surface area to hit, he barely filled any of the goal doing that
You just knew what was coming when the commentators said Henderson has saved something like 6 penalties since DDG last did. I was trying to remember penalties he's actually saved for us (DDG) there was the arsenal one in our 8-2 win and the one against Crystal Palace this season, which then had to be retaken as he was judged to come off his line. He then didn't save the retake.
Surely you put the gk with the better record at penalties on. We can't guarantee he would have saved one, but there was a better statistical chance he would. But no, Ole wasn't going to make such a big call....
Even if you're not confident at least go full stretch to the ground to give a wider surface area to hit, he barely filled any of the goal doing that
You just knew what was coming when the commentators said Henderson has saved something like 6 penalties since DDG last did. I was trying to remember penalties he's actually saved for us (DDG) there was the arsenal one in our 8-2 win and the one against Crystal Palace this season, which then had to be retaken as he was judged to come off his line. He then didn't save the retake.
Surely you put the gk with the better record at penalties on. We can't guarantee he would have saved one, but there was a better statistical chance he would. But no, Ole wasn't going to make such a big call....
The last three years have really been brutal to DDGs legacy. From savior and best in the world to utter liability.
You know it's bad when the best defence someone can come up with is 'His stats are average'.
I blame the manager (though still firmly Ole in) and the club not just for him not being subbed but giving him a world record new contract, for sticking with him when he was costing us points left and right, and for being half-hearted about it when he was finally dropped.
When Romero was playing in the cups DDG was selected over him in the semi-final (despite Romero being in better form in my opinion). We lost that too.
Henderson may or may not be the level we need, but he's currently much better than DDG. Anyone who doesn't see that is letting their memories of peak De Gea cloud his judgment.
This situation needs to be sorted out asap. Can't see a successful future for the club where DdG is our main goal keeper.
You know it's bad when the best defence someone can come up with is 'His stats are average'.
I blame the manager (though still firmly Ole in) and the club not just for him not being subbed but giving him a world record new contract, for sticking with him when he was costing us points left and right, and for being half-hearted about it when he was finally dropped.
When Romero was playing in the cups DDG was selected over him in the semi-final (despite Romero being in better form in my opinion). We lost that too.
Henderson may or may not be the level we need, but he's currently much better than DDG. Anyone who doesn't see that is letting their memories of peak De Gea cloud his judgment.
This situation needs to be sorted out asap. Can't see a successful future for the club where DdG is our main goal keeper.
Quite strange how our best 3 ever keepers have all have a poor penalty record (all under 20%)
Great Dane 3/35
DDG 11/64
VDS 11/60
For comparison the first 4 keepers I thought of ( it’s a coincidence that they are all over 20 %)
Buffon 34/111
Neuer 22/70
Casillas 23/100
Khan 18/81
Didn’t he also save from Lukaku against Everton in the cup semi? I’m genuinely struggling to name more than that and the two you mentioned...in 10 years!
How can a keeper who joined us so young and has such a dire record at United have a career percentage that’s “average”? Is he doing a Pele and beefing up his stats with schoolboy friendly matches?
Ole’s game-plan with keeping DG on was really based on Villarreal blatantly missing one rather than him pulling off a save.
Ole would have been better off making the subs during regulation time when the fate of the game was directly in United’s hands.
I think underestimating the opposition or relying on them to fail is never a good option.
Ole would have been better off making the subs during regulation time when the fate of the game was directly in United’s hands.
I think underestimating the opposition or relying on them to fail is never a good option.
Apparently DDG was handed notes on every villareal player and he ignored a few of them including to stay put for that very player who smashed it down the middle. It was the 4th one i think, if he followed the instructions and saved it then it was upto fred to put the 5th one away and seal the win.
The notes are likely fake and even if they were real 4 out of the first five were wrong
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I think honestly most people criticizing the decision of not switching keepers, have probably very little idea both how seldom it actually is, and the reasons why it’s so seldom.
any people remember Tim Krul and LVG doing it, but perhaps don’t stop to reflect on why they remember Tim Krul - it’s because it’s so seldom. But if every TV watcher can think of it, why is it so seldom? Are all coaches bar LVG and a few others so inexperienced compared to us telly fiends?
I think the truths are more about the common advantage of a keeper full of 120 mins of adrenalin and movement, over a keeper coming cold off the bench.
To be honest, I was shocked at the limp feeling I got from Dave yesterday, and almost couldn’t believe when someone said he had his hand on as many pens as did Rulli. Both keepers had bad results from the shoot out, yet few have commented Rulli. Why? Maybe he looks more fiery and active?
The truth is, Villarreal AND United executed a number of quality pens, almost as if it was a training session and not a final. Maybe the low number of supporters had more to do with it?
One of the reasons it is so seldom is because normally you can only have 3 subs and by 120 minutes they have been used on outfield players. I guarantee if every game had 6 possible subs you would see it more often.
And you know, your number 1 keeper is usually the better one. I doubt you have the situation where the back-up keeper has such a better record at penalties in most clubs.
They won both tosses
He could well have done, it's worrying we could think of so few instances of him doing it, despite all the years he's been here.
It was his body language that got me, especially that weak kneeling to the ground.
Yeah the body language was a big sign we weren’t winning that. Even after the first couple he just looked so small and unsure of himself in the net. He wasn’t getting anywhere near them.
He bounced on the line a bit for the first few and then just looked more and more defeated as it went on. We scored ours but their keeper at least got hands on a few of them, I can only think of one where De Gea looked like he could have saved it. No confidence or belief in himself.
Heh - no. He only has one dubious one (that I can see), which would be a U21 save for Spain. His other pre-United saves are all in top level games.
But the point is - I guess - that it doesn't take much to be "average" in this context. Anywhere between 15 and 20 percent is, well, average. As in - that is what you'd expect.
Someone like Krul * - who is on, what, north of 40% is an extreme outlier.
* EDIT Wait, no - he isn't at all.
Krul is nothing but average outside of actual penalty shoot-outs (which don't count in terms of career stats - same as pens scored in shoot-outs don't count).
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Buffon and Neuer are two huge names who both have an outstanding percentage - both north of 30.
From lesser (but still top level) names, Handanovic is even better at around 35%.
Then you have Diego Alves who pushes past the 40% mark - which is extreme.
I doubt you'll find more than a small handful of actual top level keepers with career records in the 30-40 bracket.
From lesser (but still top level) names, Handanovic is even better at around 35%.
Then you have Diego Alves who pushes past the 40% mark - which is extreme.
I doubt you'll find more than a small handful of actual top level keepers with career records in the 30-40 bracket.
Yeah, it's an interesting - or fun - fact.
Big Pete's numbers are just terrible.
But - again - there clearly isn't any correlation between being great on pens...and being a great allround keeper.
There isn't even a correlation between between being a great shot stopper and being great on pens (as evidenced by DDG).
I fundamentally do not understand how Schmeichel could have been that bad at penalties.
Was this something he was criticised for at the time? Or has extra scrutiny come with the increased prevalence of stats in football?
Just wonder did SAF not want to practice pens that much or had goal keeper coaches that did not focus on that part?
It's even more frustrating when you realize you can make 5 subs, and then a 6th one in extra time. The thing is, this isn't merely being a smart arse in hindsight as everyone already knew about De Geas's average (or poor) record in saving penalties.
Two silly errors. Not making the sub, and choosing to go second in the shoot-out. Fecking idiots.
Two silly errors. Not making the sub, and choosing to go second in the shoot-out. Fecking idiots.
Hard to say, but I doubt SAF paid any particular attention to it.
And in the grand scheme of things, you don't gain much from having anything like a "specialist" penalty keeper. If your No1 happens to be especially good at pens, that's a bonus - and...that's it.
You certainly wouldn't - ever - choose someone like Diego Alves over Pete or VDS just because his penalty stats are great.
Fergie famously rated goal keepers very highly in terms of importance - but he considered the big picture. The very particular trait of being above average on penalties is, ultimately, a very small part of that picture.
Ah, not sure then. The commentator on the night said Villarreal won both
People are acting like it is a common thing to switch the keeper. I know LVG did it once, is it a common thing ?
Bruno cost us the final with that decision. Bruno is a pe teacher and has to go
It's not common. But it's also not common to have the sub keeper be massively better at saving penalties, and up until last season there were only three subs as opposed to the six that we had available this time. The fact that it hasn't happened very often in the past is irrelevant as it was far more difficult when using only three subs.
in reality subbing your goalkeeper just before a penalty shootout happens how often? I can think of LVG and that’s it.
It’s a LOT more difficult to do in reality unless you have expressly discussed it with both keepers before the event.
I can’t think of a more direct way of upsetting a keeper and hammering his confidence.
Likewise, and importantly for this specific scenario, if DDG is in the shop window a move like this isn’t something you would do if you are looking for a maximum return on the sale.
It’s a LOT more difficult to do in reality unless you have expressly discussed it with both keepers before the event.
I can’t think of a more direct way of upsetting a keeper and hammering his confidence.
Likewise, and importantly for this specific scenario, if DDG is in the shop window a move like this isn’t something you would do if you are looking for a maximum return on the sale.