Pogba coming off was preparing for them. He's a bottler like De Gea and would surely have missed.
11-53/8-11 | De Gea and Henderson penalty saving record going into shootout
- Thread starter Kush
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All I kept saying to myself during the shootout was "Commit. Just commit with everything you have to one side." but all he kept doing was a half-arsed shuffle to one side.
I just cannot get over this. How do online fans realise his technique is hugely flawed while he doesn't and neither do his coaches?
"0 saves out of 40, David. Maybe we should try something new tonight?" Insanity, doing the same shit over and over and expecting different results.
This is on De Gea as much as the coaching stuff. He must realise after 6 years and 40 penalties with no saves, he must fecking realise, that he should try to change things and he didn't. I refuse to go along with "Can't blame De Gea." narrative. You absolutely can.
I just cannot get over this. How do online fans realise his technique is hugely flawed while he doesn't and neither do his coaches?
"0 saves out of 40, David. Maybe we should try something new tonight?" Insanity, doing the same shit over and over and expecting different results.
This is on De Gea as much as the coaching stuff. He must realise after 6 years and 40 penalties with no saves, he must fecking realise, that he should try to change things and he didn't. I refuse to go along with "Can't blame De Gea." narrative. You absolutely can.
Yep we must respect a player that years ago wanted a move away from old Trafford to madrid and would do it again in a heartbeat if madrid inexplicably thought it was worth revisiting a move for him again.
I don't get it. Surely a guy whose biggest asset has always been shot-stopping and reflexes should be at least a bit less shit at saving penos.
Because when the keeper falls over on the side you were planning to put the ball, while you are still on your way to it, unless you are an idiot you put the ball to the other side.
Apologies for length - I don’t understand the defence of some here for De Gea (DG) or Ole’s decision not to sub him for Henderson for the shoot-out. I also wonder as to the wisdom of selecting a keeper who has a poor record of penalty-saving for cup competions, which are increasingly decided by penalty shoot-outs, over another whose record is way above average. One can only assume that this is based on some type of agreement between Ole, DG, and Henderson that DG is going next to Spain (for family reasons) and Henderson be given priority and opportunity to cement number 1 GK position by using him as PL keeper. Otherwise, if it we’re talking about what’s best for the TEAM, then H should ideally be used for cups.
A club of MUFC’s standing clearly invests huge resources in gaining an edge like other top clubs. This includes all aspects of game strategy/management. Why else would they employ statisticians, game analytics experts, etc? They were doing so years ago even for GKs – witness how they were lauded even during Alex’s time for successfully using technology just prior to a shoot-out in a Wembley cup final with Ben Foster in goal. Last night, Villareal with very limited resources obviously did their homework on penalties and DG’s technique for such.
See the previous posts’ image of a list with all the Villareal penalty-takers’ preferences – how did Man Utd analysts discover this? Spies at the opposition training camp? The point being that they went to great lengths to create this, clearly for the reason that it gave them a potential edge = good pre-match analysis. A list like that has to be advantageous to a GK like DG as his history in that regard strongly suggests his technique at ‘reading’ penalty-takers’’ intentions is very poor.
Thus, if DG ignored the list, then it suggests ignorance, someone unable or unwilling to learn. If Ole chose to ignore the comparative history of his keepers re penalties, then that suggests a lack of professionalism, and begs the question of why such research analysis is done at great cost if it is to be ignored.
Subbing a keeper (responsible for at least 5 pens) before a penalty shoot-out is ‘disrespectful’ but not so for an outfield player responsible for just one? So, Pogba, Greenwood, Bailly or whoever has to accept that ‘he thinks I’m crap at penalties’ but a GK cannot accept such criticism? The Gk’s ego is more precious? It’s about the team and winning. It’s obvious that a large number of players had been practising penalties given the success rate, and all their training for such is undermined by a GK’s unwillingness to follow instructions, and/or a manager’s unwillingness to sub the keeper? Subbing keepers, particularly now more subs are allowed, will inevitably become more common in future. Indeed, for cup competitons, it makes terrific sense to have a keeper on the subs bench (even if normally 3rd choice) who is brilliant at saving penalties or even if sign one just for that very purpose. It’s all about winning as they will now find out to their cost.
In conclusion, Ole should either have kept Henderson for cups and DG for PL or, if the reverse, had an understanding with both that H would sub DG for penalties. If we're talking of disrespect, then the amateurism of Ole and DG has disrespected the outfield players, fans, and club.
A club of MUFC’s standing clearly invests huge resources in gaining an edge like other top clubs. This includes all aspects of game strategy/management. Why else would they employ statisticians, game analytics experts, etc? They were doing so years ago even for GKs – witness how they were lauded even during Alex’s time for successfully using technology just prior to a shoot-out in a Wembley cup final with Ben Foster in goal. Last night, Villareal with very limited resources obviously did their homework on penalties and DG’s technique for such.
See the previous posts’ image of a list with all the Villareal penalty-takers’ preferences – how did Man Utd analysts discover this? Spies at the opposition training camp? The point being that they went to great lengths to create this, clearly for the reason that it gave them a potential edge = good pre-match analysis. A list like that has to be advantageous to a GK like DG as his history in that regard strongly suggests his technique at ‘reading’ penalty-takers’’ intentions is very poor.
Thus, if DG ignored the list, then it suggests ignorance, someone unable or unwilling to learn. If Ole chose to ignore the comparative history of his keepers re penalties, then that suggests a lack of professionalism, and begs the question of why such research analysis is done at great cost if it is to be ignored.
Subbing a keeper (responsible for at least 5 pens) before a penalty shoot-out is ‘disrespectful’ but not so for an outfield player responsible for just one? So, Pogba, Greenwood, Bailly or whoever has to accept that ‘he thinks I’m crap at penalties’ but a GK cannot accept such criticism? The Gk’s ego is more precious? It’s about the team and winning. It’s obvious that a large number of players had been practising penalties given the success rate, and all their training for such is undermined by a GK’s unwillingness to follow instructions, and/or a manager’s unwillingness to sub the keeper? Subbing keepers, particularly now more subs are allowed, will inevitably become more common in future. Indeed, for cup competitons, it makes terrific sense to have a keeper on the subs bench (even if normally 3rd choice) who is brilliant at saving penalties or even if sign one just for that very purpose. It’s all about winning as they will now find out to their cost.
In conclusion, Ole should either have kept Henderson for cups and DG for PL or, if the reverse, had an understanding with both that H would sub DG for penalties. If we're talking of disrespect, then the amateurism of Ole and DG has disrespected the outfield players, fans, and club.
De Gea is the last gk in the world I would choose to go for penalties. I'd pick Taibi before him.
With penalties it's not about who's the better gk, it's about self confidence, a bit of arrogance (too much and you end up like Hart) and the ability to make yourself a big presence in goal and rise to the occasion.
De Gea has none of that.
With penalties it's not about who's the better gk, it's about self confidence, a bit of arrogance (too much and you end up like Hart) and the ability to make yourself a big presence in goal and rise to the occasion.
De Gea has none of that.
I'd have more belief in myself than I do in De Gea when it comes to penalties. The last one I remember him saving was against RVP in the 8-2 win. Apparently he saved one against Lukaku in 2016, but that was his last penalty save. So 5 years ago...ugh. No doubt in my mind that we would have won if Henderson was in goal. Hell, we would have won if I was in goal...
I knew we would lose once it got to penalties. David DeGea is the last goalkeeper I want in a pressure situation. He’s a reflex keeper. When he has to think about anything — distribution, set piece preparation and penalties, it seems the second guessing begins and there is a meteoric drop in confidence.
I personally do not think he can stay here another season.
If he had subbed Hendo in and we lost, this thread would be about how stupid he was to put someone in cold off the bench. Can't fecking win with some of you.
It is ridiculous that a lot seem to think it is a foregone conclusion that had he made the sub it was a win.
It is ridiculous that a lot seem to think it is a foregone conclusion that had he made the sub it was a win.
The more I think about this the more I think this was the most inexcusable substitution related decision by Ole. Apparently Henderson has saved 5 out of 9 penalties over the last two seasons. De Gea was on a run of 0 from 35, going back five years! How can the manager not act on these facts?!
He made a bunch of penalty related subs anyway. I can’t think of any rational explanation for not leaving Axel on the bench and getting Henderson on for the shoot-out. Subbing on a better penalty taker gives you an edge for a single kick. Subbing on a penalty saver gives you an edge in every kick we face! Just seems an absolutely unforgivable mistake to make.
He made a bunch of penalty related subs anyway. I can’t think of any rational explanation for not leaving Axel on the bench and getting Henderson on for the shoot-out. Subbing on a better penalty taker gives you an edge for a single kick. Subbing on a penalty saver gives you an edge in every kick we face! Just seems an absolutely unforgivable mistake to make.
I doubt that our coaches had a clue about the relative penalty save rate successes. They’re not that type of coaching outfit.
As for Dave, why doesn’t he just fake to dive (either way) and then just stay central? Would have saved a few that way.
As for Dave, why doesn’t he just fake to dive (either way) and then just stay central? Would have saved a few that way.
Actually. Just realised you can make SIX subs if the game goes to extra time. So he could have subbed on Axel AND Hendo!
“See the previous posts’ image of a list with all the Villareal penalty-takers’ preferences – how did Man Utd analysts discover this? Spies at the opposition training camp? The point being that they went to great lengths to create this, clearly for the reason that it gave them a potential edge = good pre-match analysis. A list like that has to be advantageous to a GK like DG as his history in that regard strongly suggests his technique at ‘reading’ penalty-takers’’ intentions is very poor.”
Because list looks fake. I put mage through fotoforensics website and
- shows up anomolies with writing
- photo of the notes has some weired material (cut with crimp scissors) framed around and overlapping as if to mask whats behind
- zoom in on red background and it looks like carpet to me.
- Red material in shot on bottom is odd also.
For me looks like someone took a photo on livingroom floor
Because list looks fake. I put mage through fotoforensics website and
- shows up anomolies with writing
- photo of the notes has some weired material (cut with crimp scissors) framed around and overlapping as if to mask whats behind
- zoom in on red background and it looks like carpet to me.
- Red material in shot on bottom is odd also.
For me looks like someone took a photo on livingroom floor
Sure, but those people who would complain at that decision would do so based on no evidence. This current criticism is backed by evidence. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. That's certainly possible, but the logic says de Gea should have been subbed out as he's our worst option for penalties.
Or a hotel room floor. Which is where you'd probably take the picture if it was real and you're the fan/journo who'd nabbed it.
That's a fantastic record for Henderson. Didn't know it was that good, to be honest. Surely up there with the best.
It would have been very harsh for Ole to take De Gea off but I guess that's why he's managing at this level. You have to make tough decisions and in hindsight, he probably should have put Henderson on.
It would have been very harsh for Ole to take De Gea off but I guess that's why he's managing at this level. You have to make tough decisions and in hindsight, he probably should have put Henderson on.
If Henderson had been in net for the shootout we’d have won. Simple as that.
There are many issues to saving penalties in a shoot out. It is different than during the game. A world class manager said that in the shoot outs, the keeper has to mentally make the goal smaller by cutting off two feet from each post. Then put an arc from there to the cross bar. Anything that is put in that zone has to be considered a good penalty. So please do not commit. In a shoot out 3 or at least two would be straight down the middle or at least saveable if the keeper does not commit. In club football especially there are one or two good penalty takers. The rest are just freelancers. Tim Krul normally does not commit himself. I would say even AWB would have saved a couple yesterday.
LVG put on Krul for the penalties. SAF put on Anderson to take penalties. I do not think And even touched the ball at all apart from the penalty.
LVG put on Krul for the penalties. SAF put on Anderson to take penalties. I do not think And even touched the ball at all apart from the penalty.
A bit like Mata then. Think his first touch was the penalty he took.
It's the level of preparation you wouldn't expect from our limited bunch. Hopefully they learned.
Given we won the toss and chose to go 2nd (just learnt this), making this sub would have been like Armstrong landing on moon for this bunch of twats.
Blaming Dé Gea for last night is daft. I think his form has fallen away but I have seen nothing to convince me Henderson is a better keeper.
No it wouldn't. This is a strawman argument. Everyone knows how bad de gea is at penalties so no one who have bat an eyelid.
Yes I remember Ando saying that it was Giggs who told SAF that he was good in penalties. Wes was taken off and Ando put on. He said, he prayed and closed his eyes and hit it straight down the middle.
The most famous sub of a keeper was exactly this. A keeper coming off the bench only for the penalties and The Netherlands won.
Really interesting that. Had no idea at the time we won the toss either.
OMG, United won the toss and deferred? Everyone knows the team that goes first wins about 60% of the time. Did Bruno not know this? Did Ole and the staff not tell Bruno that if they win the toss, they want to go first? OMG, this is basic, basic stuff. I'm now more annoyed this morning after reading this than I was yesterday.
What, de Gea has saved 11 pens?
This. The most shocking stat i've ever seen. I recall two: Arsenal amd Everton games.
5 for United, 1 for the Spain U21s, and 5 for Atletico:
https://www.transfermarkt.com/david-de-gea/elfmeterstatistik/spieler/59377
Even ignoring the fact that DDG far inferior to Dean at penalty saving, it makes a lot of sense to sub the keeper for the shootout. You can have one keeper who spends the week studying penalties, techniques and probabilities, and the starting keeper can just concentrate on preparing for the match and not have to worry about any of that. Suprised it doesn't happen more often.
Bruno letting Villarreal kick first is absolutely insane. I’d love to know the reasoning for that.
It'll surely become more normalised.
People seem to think it's a slight on the main keeper but I don't see why. It wasn't a slight on AWB or McT when he brought on Telles and Mata.
De Gea has never been the best at saving penalties. He looks like he is beaten before the player strikes it. Bringing on Henderson would have made sense but can you imagine the fallout if he failed to save one?
The thing is, if you’re going to sub on your specialist penalty takers at the 11th hour, surely you’ve got to sub on the keeper with a near 50/50 record, especially against one who couldn’t keep a beach ball out of a bin.
Sacrificed a real chance at the cup for sentimentality. To have to rely on the other team missing is tragic.
Sacrificed a real chance at the cup for sentimentality. To have to rely on the other team missing is tragic.
Would be the exact same posters calling Ole mental for making the change that is calling him mental for not doing so
As I keep saying LVG did it at the WC.