Should we renew De Gea's contract?

Renew?

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  • No


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People do underestimate how many mistakes he makes but also the amount of pressure he creates especially when the going gets tough.

It might of been the Spurs game but in the 2nd half.. he seemed to only hoof it and it practically always went to Spurs. Inviting more and more pressure.
 
I really hope we move early for a keeper in the summer that way I can calm myself that we are not run by a sabotage operation.
 
Henderson stayed a couple of seasons mostly on the bench earning over 100k/week.
That's more of an exception. Actually 100K are starter wages, most of the teams in the league don't even pay that much to their starting GK.
 
More than a number 8?
They are pretty much equal in importance for me. Striker is obviously the highest priority and will have the biggest impact on the team as a whole, but keeper and a #8 are next in line.

If you think that our defensive line can't be high and we can't play attacking possession football because of Gk, it seems like we're watching different United. But you're probably right.
Isn't that quite obvious? One of the single most important aspects of being able to maintain a high line is having a keeper behind that has a high starting position himself and comes out to act as a sweeper. Otherwise it leaves way too much space for opposition teams to play long balls and through balls in behind the defence for strikers to run onto.

Put De Gea into City or Liverpool and their defence instantly has to drop deeper to compensate. Which then has the knock-on effect of their entire pressing system not working so well as there is more space between the lines and they can't win the ball back so often and so quickly. Likewise put a sweeper keeper into our team and our defence is able to stay higher (which we already saw in a small sample size when Henderson was first choice at the end of 20/21). People put a lot of focus on distribution and passing ability, but many really do sleep on how important a sweeper keeper is to a team. Even if the actual quality of what they do with the ball isn't that much better than De Gea, the very fact that they are there covering for their defence is extremely important. Pope is a great example of that.
 
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Some people might be too young to remember the time when Foster, Carroll and Howard were our no 1 keepers. It was a mess which was way beyond to what we're seeing right now. Sure DDG is in decline but he's still a very valid keeper. With a summer set to be ruined by the takeover, with just 100m to spend and with incompetent people managing the club (DOFs etc) then it makes sense to keep DDG around. Don't mention Henderson. The guy's two only assets are his arrogance and his ability to pick the ball from the net. In fact he conceded 31 goals in 18 matches
Howard's first season was better than any season De Gea has had in the last five. Hell, he was picked in the PFA team of the year. He did drop off in his second season that but probably not much more than what we've seen from De Gea. It's just that we had a manager who was willing to drop him when he struggled, something that blatantly should have been done a number of times while we had the likes of Romero and Henderson on the bench (who both outperformed De Gea in their opportunities, admittedly a relatively small sample size).

In regards to Henderson, he is in one of the worst teams in the league that had went on a buying spree that I don't think has ever been seen before. The team ahead of him were basically strangers who had never played together so it's unsurprising that they took a while to gel. It's worth noting that their defence had notably shored up before Henderson's injury with five clean sheets in his last eight games, which then immediately ended with them only having one clean sheet in the sixteen games since despite replacing him with a multiple CL winning Navas. That on top of him clearly being better both individually and for the team in the only proper run of games he did get for us. I don't actually rate him that highly but I would absolutely prefer him over De Gea, which says more about the latter than the former.
 
Oh my God, people still discussing about IFS and BUTS for his contract renewal!
Absolutely not.

The only exception is if he lowers his wages to <100k/week and agrees to play second/third fiddle to incoming goalkeeper(s).
 
Oh my God, people still discussing about IFS and BUTS for his contract renewal!
Absolutely not.

The only exception is if he lowers his wages to <100k/week and agrees to play second/third fiddle to incoming goalkeeper(s).

People are discussing cause unfortunately there's "news" that we've agreed terms. Baffling if true, unless the club has explicitly told ETH that we don't have funds for a new keeper.
 
Look De Gea isn’t the greatest keeper in the world but he can do a job. What if we release him? Other clubs will skin us because they know we’re desperate for a goalkeeper. I think we can now buy ourselves some time, identify a great keeper without resorting to a panic buy and negotiate with a club and club keeper to decent terms.
We cannot push ourselves into a situation where we don’t have control.
 
Howard's first season was better than any season De Gea has had in the last five. Hell, he was picked in the PFA team of the year. He did drop off in his second season that but probably not much more than what we've seen from De Gea. It's just that we had a manager who was willing to drop him when he struggled, something that blatantly should have been done a number of times while we had the likes of Romero and Henderson on the bench (who both outperformed De Gea in their opportunities, admittedly a relatively small sample size).

In regards to Henderson, he is in one of the worst teams in the league that had went on a buying spree that I don't think has ever been seen before. The team ahead of him were basically strangers who had never played together so it's unsurprising that they took a while to gel. It's worth noting that their defence had notably shored up before Henderson's injury with five clean sheets in his last eight games, which then immediately ended with them only having one clean sheet in the sixteen games since despite replacing him with a multiple CL winning Navas. That on top of him clearly being better both individually and for the team in the only proper run of games he did get for us. I don't actually rate him that highly but I would absolutely prefer him over De Gea, which says more about the latter than the former.

DDG did very well last season. His form dipped this year but he is still a better keeper then the likes of Howard, Carroll and Foster. Henderson does alot of talking but has yet to back that talking with goods. As said, his stats this season was shocking.

United doesn't have alot of money to spend and this takeover looks set to ruin our summer transfer window for good. Letting DDG go would be stupid
 
DDG did very well last season. His form dipped this year but he is still a better keeper then the likes of Howard, Carroll and Foster. Henderson does alot of talking but has yet to back that talking with goods. As said, his stats this season was shocking.

United doesn't have alot of money to spend and this takeover looks set to ruin our summer transfer window for good. Letting DDG go would be stupid

No, he didn't. He had some excellent games at the start and after Rangnick was appointed but otherwise he wasn't very good.
 
DDG did very well last season. His form dipped this year but he is still a better keeper then the likes of Howard, Carroll and Foster. Henderson does alot of talking but has yet to back that talking with goods. As said, his stats this season was shocking.

United doesn't have alot of money to spend and this takeover looks set to ruin our summer transfer window for good. Letting DDG go would be stupid
We don't have much money because we keep wasting it on expensive flops who don't improve the team. Perhaps spending some of it on a good keeper would finally yield some significant improvement in how we play. Or we could keep doing what we've been doing and stick with De Gea and hope something magically changes
 
DDG did very well last season. His form dipped this year but he is still a better keeper then the likes of Howard, Carroll and Foster. Henderson does alot of talking but has yet to back that talking with goods. As said, his stats this season was shocking.

United doesn't have alot of money to spend and this takeover looks set to ruin our summer transfer window for good. Letting DDG go would be stupid
Only in the first half of the season. Which is the only time in literally half a decade where he's looked remotely like he did at his best. Then he dropped off significantly in the second half of the season and was very average if not downright poor.

Henderson backed it up to some extent when he got that run of games in 20/21. I'd say he was better during that period than De Gea has been at any stage over these last fives years other than the first half of 21/22. He made a couple of mistakes (which De Gea has obviously been doing for a much longer period of time) but otherwise he was making the saves he should be making while also doing the basics that De Gea doesn't do. I really doubt it's a coincidence that our defence suddenly looked the most confident and comfortably that it had in the seasons surrounding that period.

De Gea can not be kept as our #1. In theory I wouldn't mind seeing him as our #2 for a season, but there's two issues with that. Firstly, the #2 tends to play in the cups which is where De Gea has a history of making mistakes that knocks us out and also he's obviously extremely poor in penalty situations. Secondly, if our new #1 does have a rough period the pressure to bring De Gea back in will be huge and may make it more difficult for the #1 to recover his form. Looking back in time again, an argument could be made that we would have been better off if Ferguson had stuck with Howard rather than dropping him for Carroll, seeing as an inform Howard was obviously a lot better and he went on to be a solid PL keeper for the next decade or so with Everton.
 
Wanted to put this in a separate thread as a summary of exactly why replacing David de Gea should in fact be our no. 1 priority this summer. (Yes, a striker is crucial as well, but I'll get to that).
I'll just leave it here instead, and by chance it might spark some further debate -- going beyond "I want him to go because of his passing/I want him to stay because of his shot stopping or legendary status".

WHY AND HOW DE GEA IS OUR BIGGEST LIABILITY AND HINDRANCE TO EVOLVING OUR STYLE OF PLAY
De Gea is our biggest problem, and he has been for years.
De Gea's problem isn't the shot stopping, or the fact that he's prone to the occasional clanger.
Every single goalkeeper is prone to that, even the very best like Allison and Ederson.
The problem is much bigger than that.

He is the root of the entire issue of why we struggle to control games, and dominate possession. It all starts with him, and he gives away the ball all the time. We are without any chance to sustain control of the game against the better sides, when we have a goalkeeper who is unable to effectively recycle possession. It's like trying to play tennis with a smartphone.

De Gea will boot the ball into the opposition 9/10 times. Right there, we are losing an insane amount of possession.
And whenever we win it back, we hoof it to Rashford, who loses it frequently.
That's a hopeless tactic to sustain over a 38 game season, if we want to win the league.
It wastes too much energy, and sees us chasing the ball half the time, instead of controlling the game.

And that's without mentioning his complete lack of commanding the box and picking up dangerous crosses and high balls.
Or his inability to sweep and maintain a high line, allowing the rest of the team to maintain a high line and playing with possession in the final third.

He is statistically and anecdotally one of the the biggest liability for chances against in all of Europe's top 5 leagues because of this and his lack of ability on the ball.
We have one of the very worst possible goalkeeper for a possession based football side.
And at the same time, he is the best paid goalkeeper of all time, ever.
It's a catastrophic combo.

Teams like City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Brighton all average 60-65 percent possession throughout the entire season.
This means they effectively control their games most of the time, while also minimizing chances against, and maximizing chances created.
You can not concede if you have control.
And, you can't score when you don't have the ball.

Not to mention how much energy we waste trying to constantly regain possession.
No wonder we're often tired in the second half.
The team who has the ball always uses less energy.

How do the best teams do this? Simple, really...
They have a goalkeeper and a back four who can play and pass off the press and are press resistant.

Want to improve our team both defensively and offensively in a single act?
Replace David de Gea.

If you then add a striker, they will get the ball so much more, because we will have possession a lot more.

Add Kane or Osimhen to the side without replacing de Gea?
We will be marginally better, but our striker will have the exact same problem all of our strikers have had with de Gea in the team: They will see much less of the ball and get fewer chances, because we can't recycle possession effectively.

A lot of fans want us to challenge and improve de Gea, by bringing in a better no2.
But, if you think bringing in competition will significantly improve de Gea, you're missing the essential point.
Alas, it worked for Luke Shaw, some might say?

Yes, that worked because Shaw is inherently technically gifted and a great footballer with the ball in his feet, but is prone to motivational problems.

De Gea, on the other hand, lacks the technical and tactical acumen of a modern goalkeeper required to play possession based football.
No amount of "competition" can ever change that. In fact, at his age, no amount of coaching can significantly change that either.
When was the last time you saw a 30+ year old goalkeeper dramatically change his game? Hardly ever, if not never.

On top of all of this, sticking with de Gea means that we will continue to be:
1) Extremely susceptible to conceding chances and goals against on crosses and set pieces, because De Gea does not command his box.
He is scared and weak in aerial duels, and teams who cross are a constant threat.
We also lose so much possession by then having to clear the ball, because our keeper can't come out and claim it.
2) Weak and scared in 1v1.
He will never throw himself at the feet of attackers, to prevent them getting a shot off.
Instead, he will adapt this ludicrous hockey style stance by going down on one knee, effectively pinning him to the ground and becoming static, making him easy to score against.
3) Lacking in communication and directing his back line.
This spreads insecurity across the entire back line, and often leads to confusion.
A good keeper will always yell and show defenders where the best passing lanes are.

If you want him to stay, you clearly don't see why Ederson make City so dominant in possession, and why City are so dominant inside their own box, which then leads to them being dominant further up the pitch.
Yes, it's because their entire team is great in possession and press resistant. But without a solid backline and goalkeeper who also are just as good in possession, with passing, and being press resistant, it won't really matter that much if the midfield and attackers are.

The pro-De Gea agenda is mostly based on pure nostalgic love for his beautiful saves, and his time spent at the club.
Truth is, he is the exact same keeper he always was.
He has always had these weaknesses ever since he was at Atletico Madrid, and he will never change.
Even Spain's national team understand his glaring weaknesses will prevent them from playing modern football, and therefore he is not even considered good enough to be their third choice goalkeeper.
Add to all of this: He is the best paid goalkeeper in the history of football, and is a giant money sink for our club.
Even on his newly reduced wages at 200 000 GBP a week... Simply a terrible choice to want him to stay, in every conceivable way, including financially.

HOW REPLACING DE GEA WOULD DRASTICALLY IMPROVE OUR ATTACKING FOOTBALL, AND OVERALL PLAY
Replacing De Gea with a goalkeeper who can effectively recycle possession, means that we will have much more of the ball, which in turn means we can create more chances than if we don't have possession.
Then, you later add to that by replacing outfield players who are wasteful in possession, and finally add a quality striker.

Build from the back, and you will gain control of the games much faster. Always start by building from the back, and preferrably, with your goalkeeper and centre backs.

Build from the front, like many are suggesting, and we end up with a quality striker like Kane or Osimhen, who will then not even get the ball that much.
That's the exaxt same problem we've had with all of our strikers since after van Persie.
De Gea is by far our biggest problem and liability when it comes to controlling possession and dominating games, which eventually leads to chance creation and scoring.

De Gea boots the ball long so many times every game, that our midfield and attackers inevitably end up chasing the opponent.
It also adds to the problem of players getting tired and more injury prone, because of all the needless high energy running they have to do out of possession.

I'm not suggesting that simply replacing de Gea, whilst ignoring the need for better attacking players, will fix our issues of scoring goals. It won't.
But it would be the very first step to ensure that our attacking players actually have the chance to create more, by ensuring progression of possession -- from the back lines, to the front.

You can add prime Ronaldo, prime Kane, prime Henry, and prime Rashford to this team.
But without a solid baseline with a goalkeeper that acts as that extra ball playing defender to create overloads in our defense, we can't reach that dominance in games that teams like City, Liverpool and at times, Brighton, can.

So, it should be pretty obvious exactly why replacing de Gea should be our main priority.
It improves us not only defensively, but also offensively.
It improves our overall play, and makes us more dominant and possessive of the ball.
We will strengthen our ability to control games, all over the pitch.
Then, you add that final piece of the puzzle, the world class striker.
That striker's chance of actually getting the ball in good positions can only improve if we have more possession.
And replacing de Gea is the very first step to ensure we gain more possession.

THE PROBLEM WITH AFFORDING A WORLD CLASS GOALKEEPER
Allison and Ederson
are today recognized as two of the very best goalkeepers in the world -- deservedly and rightfully so.
When Liverpool and Manchester City bought them, hardly anyone had even heard of them outside of their respective clubs' fanbases.
They were not considered anywhere near world class, outside of some well hidden metrics that no one was looking at, except the most fervent of stat-heads and scouting departments.
Well played Liverpool and City, that's some grade A scouting right there.

Barring we find a way to bring in almost a limitless cash flow (Qatar... that's another debate), or we do a Chelsea and tapdance our way around those FFP regulations, we might have to prioritize either a striker, or a goalkeeper.
Seeing as strikers are both:
a) Much harder to come by
b) More expensive


...It would be very wise to spend the money on a striker first. It's a gaping hole that everyone can agree needs to be filled. Arguably, we even need two new strikers.

The next move would then be to either do a proper worldie in the scouting market to find a fantastic, yet cheap, goalkeeper, something that our scouts never, ever do.
Our scouts landed on Wan-Bissaka as the best right back in the world out of a list of 800 potential targets. How? They obviously only looked at defensive stats to determine the worth of a full back based on a single skill trait: His 1v1 defending stats. Absolutely shocking scouting.

So, I don't trust our scouting department yet, even if it's been replaced. Maybe they can earn our trust this summer, but I reserve the right to not believe so.
Unless we can afford someone like Diogo Costa, or someone of similiar attributes, we can't just buy our way to a new number 1 this summer.
Many fans want want David Raya, and while good and a step up from de Gea, his passing and composure does actually leave a bit to be desired.

BUT, HE USED TO BE WORLD CLASS?!
An overwhelming majority of our fanbase still believe with utmost sincerity that David de Gea used to be a world class goalkeeper.

If you are one of those fans (you most likely are) you are defining "world class" based solely on shot stopping/goal prevention.

These stats do not take into account how many of these chances were either a direct or indirect consequence of his inability to:

a) Pass through the press, instead of hoofing it long and giving away possession.
b) Maintain a high sweeping line, enabling our midfield and attacking lines to further maintain higher pressing and counter-pressing lines.
c) Command his box, and collecting high balls before an opposing player could gain possession, or alternatively finish or score.


No one is denying his ability to stop shots.
And there is no doubt that during the 17/18-season, he stopped shots like a machine, with excellent PSxG.

But, it's still incredibly reductionist to call him a flat out "world class" goalkeeper, based on that stat alone, without taking into account the other parts of his game, that have been detrimental to our control of our game since he joined us from Atletico Madrid.

Even in his "best" seasons, he has still been a relatively poor:

1. Sweeper keeper.
2. High ball and cross collector.
3. Passing and ball handling keeper.

4. General commander of his box and back line.

So while most would agree that he was a fantastic shot stopper...
I am both anecdotally and factually inclined to strongly disagree that he was ever a "class" allround goalkeeper and footballer.

He just wasn't, isn't, or will ever be at his age.

Keepers like Neuer already revolutionized the role of a modern goalkeeper almost 20 years ago, leaving keepers like de Gea outdated, even before United signed him.

A POSSIBLE (SHORT-TERM) SOLUTION
Many of our fans don't rate (hate that word) Dean Henderson.
It's clear that they didn't really watch him at Sheffield United, in his back-to-back seasons.
He was their key player in securing promotion to the Premier League.
The following season, he was their key player in Sheffield United staying up by a comfortable margin.
He played every match that season in the Premier League, except of course for the two fixtures against United.
At the end of the season, he was among the top goalkeepers in the league across a wide variety of important metrics, even challenging the likes of Allison and Ederson.

When he then got a chance to fight against de Gea under Ole, he was only remembered for a couple of blunders. And yes, those were not good.
But, in his 26 games that season, he comfortably outperformed de Gea on almost every single stat, and conceded less than de Gea.
The defense -- which wasn't great, to be fair -- looked much more reassured and convincing when he played.
He made a string of world class saves, commanded his box, played out from the back more than de Gea, and was deservedly in the pipeline to be the starter for next season... then Covid hit. And it hit him hard. He contracted Long Covid, which kept him out of training for months.
De Gea was now back in goal, as there were no other viable options. He continued to play like he always does: Making beautiful saves, but not developing his awful attributes in every other area.

Henderson was loaned out again, this time to newly promoted Nottingham Forest. Quite frankly, one of the worst newly promoted teams we've seen in the Premier League the last decade, with a ramshackle squad consisting of no less than 23(!) new signings.

He still went on to become their most important player, consistently giving 8/10 performances. His matches against Spurs and Liverpool rank especially high.

Of course, Forest under Cooper have flat out refused to play out from the back, so his stats will not reflect his abilities with his feet, as he is forced to boot it long almost every single time.
But he kept delivering, and was at the start of the season after 10 rounds, among the top performing goalkeepers in the league.

Then injury hit, and Navas was brought in as an emergency replacement. It was estimated he would be back in March/April, and Cooper even said he would then be their no1 again, despite Navas still being at the club.
Navas is not a bad keeper, and has had a fantastic career. He is very athletic and energetic. But he is not doing well in the Premier League. He initially made some cracking saves, which is his game. But he is not enough of a presence with his small stature, and limited horizontal and vertical reach.

Henderson has now undergone surgery, and is likely to be fit for the pre-season, or at least in August.
Spending nothing on a new keeper, while allocating funds to a striker and perhaps a midfielder, seems like the smarter move.
I'd give him the next season to prove his worth, and let him be the no1 choice throughout, without a sulking de Gea breathing down his neck.
For those who don't think Henderson can hack it, my bet is you'll be comfortably surprised.
Those who have actually followed his career, and regularly watched his game (not just clips on YouTube or MOTD), know how good he is.

THE NOT-SO-IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT PISS SOME FANS OFF, BUT REALLY SHOULDN'T MATTER

I can understand some fans having reservations based on rumours that he was one of the leaks in the dressing room.
Might I remind you that there have been actually no proof of this.
What we do know is that the team line-ups are still leaking this season, and it is surely not Henderson leaking that.
We can assume Pogba leaked like a sieve, at least according to his brother and agent, who frequently spoke of United's inner operations in the media.
The only definitive proof of leaks we have is that Lingard was definitely leaking, because Scholes effectively outed him live on BT Sports.

There have been a ton of rumours that Rashford was among those who leaked, with a powerful PR team behind him. Countless stories of Rashford being dissatisfied with managers emerged on a yearly basis, and eventually led to Ole having to apologize and rescind some comments he had made about Rashford's focus due to his charity work.

Again, these claims are unsubstantiated. But no one gives Rashford any grief for it. So let's give the same nod to Henderson, another one of our youth products that we should be proud of, and has never had any substantiated claims of leaking anything against him.

He is the first actual goalkeeper in many years who has come through our academy, and developed into a quality Premier League goalkeeper.

Some fans will also have a thorn in their side because of his interview.
I watched the interview back then and right now before writing this, and I saw nothing wrong with it. He is being honest, and calling out Ole as a man manager. I would be just as pissed and open about it if I was him, and I undoubtedly still love our club.
After all we've heard from other players and sources regarding Solskjaer's man management, I am inclined to believe this.

Not to mention, if half of our fanbase can look past Mason Greenwood's... ehm, issues.
Then surely the majority of our fanbase can see past an interview with an angry Henderson calling out Ole.
And if not, good riddance.
 
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Only in the first half of the season. Which is the only time in literally half a decade where he's looked remotely like he did at his best. Then he dropped off significantly in the second half of the season and was very average if not downright poor.

Henderson backed it up to some extent when he got that run of games in 20/21. I'd say he was better during that period than De Gea has been at any stage over these last fives years other than the first half of 21/22. He made a couple of mistakes (which De Gea has obviously been doing for a much longer period of time) but otherwise he was making the saves he should be making while also doing the basics that De Gea doesn't do. I really doubt it's a coincidence that our defence suddenly looked the most confident and comfortably that it had in the seasons surrounding that period.

De Gea can not be kept as our #1. In theory I wouldn't mind seeing him as our #2 for a season, but there's two issues with that. Firstly, the #2 tends to play in the cups which is where De Gea has a history of making mistakes that knocks us out and also he's obviously extremely poor in penalty situations. Secondly, if our new #1 does have a rough period the pressure to bring De Gea back in will be huge and may make it more difficult for the #1 to recover his form. Looking back in time again, an argument could be made that we would have been better off if Ferguson had stuck with Howard rather than dropping him for Carroll, seeing as an inform Howard was obviously a lot better and he went on to be a solid PL keeper for the next decade or so with Everton.

If Henderson was anywhere near as good as DDG was then he would have played during the Ole Brexit administration. The reality is that Dean Henderson lost his place with United despite all the cards were staked against DDG, he left with a huff and didn't bothered letting ETH have a look at him and then went on to Nottingham were he kept picking the ball from the net up until he got injured
 
We don't have much money because we keep wasting it on expensive flops who don't improve the team. Perhaps spending some of it on a good keeper would finally yield some significant improvement in how we play. Or we could keep doing what we've been doing and stick with De Gea and hope something magically changes

That's something that hopefully the new admin will have a look at. This takeover mess seem to be dragging till at least mid June and by the time the new admin had taken over the summer transfer window will be weeks if not days away from closing. With CM and STK needing strengthening there's simply not enough time to replace DDG. So let's keep the man and let's postpone the issue till next summer.
 
How is De Gea staying going to help a new keeper with stability? If anything, De Gea would undermine the new keeper and make his case to be #1 the moment the new guy has a bad game
You need to ask ten Hag that question because it's reported he wants to keep DDG around due to his positive influence in dressing room. That then has the potential to create a stable environment and a good team spirit. I don't have a issue with that and as much as I've never really rated DDG as a goalkeeper but him being around could potentially help a new goalkeeper settle in quickly.
 
DDG did very well last season. His form dipped this year but he is still a better keeper then the likes of Howard, Carroll and Foster. Henderson does alot of talking but has yet to back that talking with goods. As said, his stats this season was shocking.

United doesn't have alot of money to spend and this takeover looks set to ruin our summer transfer window for good. Letting DDG go would be stupid

Everything in this post is factually wrong, including the claim on Henderson's stats.
It seems you never watched him for Sheffield United, and that you hardly ever watched him for Forest before his injury.

Your claim that having de Gea stay on to help ease on/mentor a new goalkeeper is a good move, is also baffling.

No goalkeeper in the world would want someone breathing down their neck, while they're trying to to earn their spot.
There's nothing worse for the morale and mentality of a goalkeeper, than to play two goalkeepers off of each other to create competition.
Ole did that, and it just made for two dissatisfied goalkeepers.

Why would anyone want an "understudy" to de Gea?

Is de Gea going to mentor someone into becoming a ball playing sweeper-keeper?
Not very likely.

Romero and Lindegaard were both "understudies" to de Gea, and were both excellent goalkeepers for their era.
How did that turn out for them?

There's a reason why no top team ever does this, and have a well established pecking order, regardless of if their no1 has the occassional clanger or bad game.

I'd go into a lot more detail as to exactly why your posts are wrong, but I made a longer post above that addresses that.

Needless to say, there are a lot of differing opinions on de Gea / Henderson, but your posts in this thread are some of the most uninformed and factually wrong there is.

Nothing personal, you're a top bloke, surely. Just talking about the contents of your posts.
I smell an agenda, and I'm just calling it out.
 
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You need to ask ten Hag that question because it's reported he wants to keep DDG around due to his positive influence in dressing room. That then has the potential to create a stable environment and a good team spirit. I don't have a issue with that and as much as I've never really rated DDG as a goalkeeper but him being around could potentially help a new goalkeeper settle in quickly.

Player that starts almost every game is a positive influence in the dressing room, supportive of whoever happens to be the current manager. Would that same player be a positive influence in the event that they became a back-up player ?

There were a lot of desperately unhappy United players last season, many of whom felt they should be getting far more playing time. We kept Juan Mata around for several seasons because he was such an impressive role model; that didn't seem to help us avoid total meltdown last season.

If we have agreed £200K basic wages + appearance bonuses (as recent newspaper articles suggest) then the people involved should be fired. You don't need a Phd to check the approximate market rate for keeper salaries and Fbref to see a range of keeper stats. De Gea would be very fortunate to earn £100K a week in a top 5 European league.

United need to move to a much lower basic salary + high appearance bonuses model in order to avoid the alarmingly typical situation in which we cannot sell players that barely feature as they earn too much. In De Gea's case, his basic salary should be an amount that he might earn elsewhere.
 
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Player that starts almost every game is a positive influence in the dressing room, supportive of whoever happens to be the current manager. Would that same player be a positive influence in the event that they became a back-up player ?

There were a lot of desperately unhappy United players last season, many of whom felt they should be getting far more playing time. We kept Juan Mata around for several seasons because he was such an impressive role model; that didn't seem to help us avoid total meltdown last season.
There was many unhappy players players around last season because the previous manager made promises that he didn't keep hence it caused discontent.

And from what's been reported, DDG will be on a back up goalkeeper contract and a reduced salary hence he should know his place in the squad. And like I've already mentioned, it has been reported for some time about the likes of DDG, Bruno and Matic etc fighting to maintain standards in the dressing room as well being good reference points for young players who step up to the first team squad or first team training.

It's the exact reason why ten Hag wanted to keep Matic to help with the above and with new players arriving who needed players already at the club who will help evolve a culture that was in disarray.
 
2 year renew + buy a young goalkeeper like Anatoly Trubin to his understudy to mold him to be modern Sweeper Keeper like we need.
Or let’s just get a modern sweeper keeper we don’t need to mould.
 
As a back-up keeper! YES. DDG is a club legend, could be a great mentor to the next No.1. As long as he is willing to be benched, I would say Yes. His days as our preferred starting GK where long over. He has been hanging for the last 2 seasons only because our other areas on the field were much dire and needed immediate replacement.
 
Or let’s just get a modern sweeper keeper we don’t need to mould.

Exactly, nailed it.

Why would anyone want an "understudy" to de Gea?

Is de Gea going to mentor someone into becoming a ball playing sweeper-keeper?
Not very likely.

It would just mean two more years of being unable to recycle possession, while also paying de Gea a massive wage for hindering a truly great goalkeeper to claim his spot.

Romero and Lindegaard were both "understudies" to de Gea, and were both excellent goalkeepers for their era.
How did that turn out for them?

It's truly the worst of both worlds.
 
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If Henderson was anywhere near as good as DDG was then he would have played during the Ole Brexit administration. The reality is that Dean Henderson lost his place with United despite all the cards were staked against DDG, he left with a huff and didn't bothered letting ETH have a look at him and then went on to Nottingham were he kept picking the ball from the net up until he got injured
All the cards stacked against De Gea? Ole was loyal to a fault, yet even he ultimately dropped De Gea for Henderson in the first season they were both options. It was only Henderson getting long Covid which gave De Gea back the spot the following season, and De Gea did actually step up and looked something like his old self until after Ole was sacked and a month or two into Rangnick's reign.

You've mentioned a few times about Henderson letting in a lot of goals with Forest without putting it in context. It was one of the most randomly put together squads in the history of the PL, and every man and their dog knew they would struggle to gel at the beginning of the season. Then ended up conceding 21 goals in the first 8 games. However they then only conceded 10 in the next 10 games with Henderson in the goal. Since he's been injured they largely fell apart again, conceding 31 goals in 17 games (despite his replacement being a multiple CL winner).

To do a much more fair comparison, in 20/21 De Gea conceded 32 goals in 25.5 games, while Henderson conceded 12 goals in 12.5 games (46 in 36 games for De Gea and 22 in 26 for Henderson if you include cup games). In fact, it gets a lot worse the longer you look at it:

18/19: 63 goals in 47 games (De Gea)
19/20: 44 goals in 43 games (De Gea)
20/21: 46 goals in 36 games (De Gea) / 22 goals in 26 games (Henderson)
21:22: 66 goals in 46 games (De Gea)
22:23: 57 goals in 53 games (De Gea) so far

So in the last five years literally the only time we conceded less than a goal a game was when we dropped De Gea and bought in Henderson. So it's a very simple question for you - do you think that was a coincidence?
 
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Why does people keep saying they want him as a 2nd choice? He's expensive, why would we want an expensive shitty second choice? I want him out definetively.
The club has an option for this next year I believe. They aren’t picking up the option. If he re-signs for 3 years at 150k/wk as a backup, would that be acceptable? Various news outlets reported that if he came back, it would be on reduced wages.
 
All the cards stacked against De Gea? Ole was loyal to a fault, yet even he ultimately dropped De Gea for Henderson in the first season they were both options. It was only Henderson getting long Covid which gave De Gea back the spot the following season, and De Gea did actually step up and looked something like his old self until after Ole was sacked and a month or two into Rangnick's reign.

You've mentioned a few times about Henderson letting in a lot of goals with Forest without putting it in context. It was one of the most randomly put together squads in the history of the PL, and every man and their dog knew they would struggle to gel at the beginning of the season. Then ended up conceding 21 goals in the first 8 games. However they then only conceded 10 in the next 10 games with Henderson in the goal. Since he's been injured they largely fell apart again, conceding 31 goals in 17 games (despite his replacement being a multiple CL winner).

To do a much more fair comparison, in 20/21 De Gea conceded 32 goals in 25.5 games, while Henderson conceded 12 goals in 12.5 games (46 in 36 games for De Gea and 22 in 26 for Henderson if you include cup games). In fact, it gets a lot worse the longer you look at it:

18/19: 63 goals in 47 games (De Gea)
19/20: 44 goals in 43 games (De Gea)
20/21: 46 goals in 36 games (De Gea) / 22 goals in 26 games (Henderson)
21:22: 66 goals in 46 games (De Gea)
22:23: 57 goals in 53 games (De Gea) so far

So in the last five years literally the only time we conceded less than a goal a game was when we dropped De Gea and bought in Henderson. So it's a very simple question for you - do you think that was a coincidence?
Very interesting stats. What Henderson’s save percentage higher than DDG? Dave has always been notoriously bad with distribution and his feet, but to me Henderson has looked worse in that department.

I do think that DDG has some spectacular saves, but is that because his positioning is slightly off? Anticipating where the shot will go and moving slightly in that direction is a skill too. Communication is a skill as well.

For some reason, I always thought Kaylor Navas was the anti-DeGea… unheralded, not a prototypical keeper body. But excellent at directing the defense, commanding his box, positioning, and pretty mistake free if memory serves. Wouldn’t mind someone like that…
 
The club has an option for this next year I believe. They aren’t picking up the option. If he re-signs for 3 years at 150k/wk as a backup, would that be acceptable? Various news outlets reported that if he came back, it would be on reduced wages.
No remotely sane club would pay a backup goalkeeper 150k/week. I'm pretty sure Alisson is the only other keeper in the league that earns that much.
 
Very interesting stats. What Henderson’s save percentage higher than DDG? Dave has always been notoriously bad with distribution and his feet, but to me Henderson has looked worse in that department.

I do think that DDG has some spectacular saves, but is that because his positioning is slightly off? Anticipating where the shot will go and moving slightly in that direction is a skill too. Communication is a skill as well.

For some reason, I always thought Kaylor Navas was the anti-DeGea… unheralded, not a prototypical keeper body. But excellent at directing the defense, commanding his box, positioning, and pretty mistake free if memory serves. Wouldn’t mind someone like that…

I don't think Forest have been overly impressed with him.
 
The club has an option for this next year I believe. They aren’t picking up the option. If he re-signs for 3 years at 150k/wk as a backup, would that be acceptable? Various news outlets reported that if he came back, it would be on reduced wages.
People here are talking as if we're a broke club or something. It's not mainly about the money its about De Gea not being good enough. I don't want him here even is he's on 10K wages.
 
Very interesting stats. What Henderson’s save percentage higher than DDG? Dave has always been notoriously bad with distribution and his feet, but to me Henderson has looked worse in that department.

I do think that DDG has some spectacular saves, but is that because his positioning is slightly off? Anticipating where the shot will go and moving slightly in that direction is a skill too. Communication is a skill as well.

For some reason, I always thought Kaylor Navas was the anti-DeGea… unheralded, not a prototypical keeper body. But excellent at directing the defense, commanding his box, positioning, and pretty mistake free if memory serves. Wouldn’t mind someone like that…
Save percentage is not a very good stat to judge a keeper since it doesnt take into account the "dangerousness" of the shot. A great save counts the same as a easy save for that matter. Neither clean sheets as it's a whole team effort, not only defense and certainly not only goalkeeper.

I'd say the most complete stat to judge a goalkeeper its the PSxG. Meaning how likely is a shot to end up in goal. For example this season Alisson has a +9.3 PSxG meaning an average keeper would have let in 9.3 goals more than Alisson. De Gea has a -1.7 PSxG meaning he's let 1.7 goals more than the average keeper would.

Henderson has a -4.1 PSxG meaning he's even worse than De Gea. But that doesn't mean De Gea is good enough, it only means they're both below average. We need someone class like Alisson.

Stats taken from here:
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
 
Very interesting stats. What Henderson’s save percentage higher than DDG? Dave has always been notoriously bad with distribution and his feet, but to me Henderson has looked worse in that department.

I do think that DDG has some spectacular saves, but is that because his positioning is slightly off? Anticipating where the shot will go and moving slightly in that direction is a skill too. Communication is a skill as well.

For some reason, I always thought Kaylor Navas was the anti-DeGea… unheralded, not a prototypical keeper body. But excellent at directing the defense, commanding his box, positioning, and pretty mistake free if memory serves. Wouldn’t mind someone like that…
Henderson's save percentage in his season with us (76.5%) was better than any of De Gea's last five seasons (71.9%, 74.8%, 68.9%, 70% and 70%). This season with Forest is worse than any of them though (65.9%), so it could be just a relatively small sample size (12 and 18 games in his two seasons), a decline in his ability to make saves, or the difference between being in goal for Man Utd and Forest. I also don't think it's that great a stat.

Henderson is quite poor with his passing himself, although personally I wouldn't say any worse. He does have good distribution with his throws though, and is also much more eager to sweep and takes a higher starting position.

I checked out a couple of Forest forums a few weeks ago (before the match against us) and while it certainly wasn't unanimous there was a fairly obvious majority who thought Henderson had been better than Navas was for them.

Of course, I do want to stress again that I'm not actually saying I want Henderson as our goalkeeper. It's just that he is better than what he gets credit for here and IMO better than De Gea so if it does come down to the two of them I'd prefer him. However I actually want better again, and don't think we'd have to break the bank to get that.
 
All the cards stacked against De Gea? Ole was loyal to a fault, yet even he ultimately dropped De Gea for Henderson in the first season they were both options. It was only Henderson getting long Covid which gave De Gea back the spot the following season, and De Gea did actually step up and looked something like his old self until after Ole was sacked and a month or two into Rangnick's reign.

You've mentioned a few times about Henderson letting in a lot of goals with Forest without putting it in context. It was one of the most randomly put together squads in the history of the PL, and every man and their dog knew they would struggle to gel at the beginning of the season. Then ended up conceding 21 goals in the first 8 games. However they then only conceded 10 in the next 10 games with Henderson in the goal. Since he's been injured they largely fell apart again, conceding 31 goals in 17 games (despite his replacement being a multiple CL winner).

To do a much more fair comparison, in 20/21 De Gea conceded 32 goals in 25.5 games, while Henderson conceded 12 goals in 12.5 games (46 in 36 games for De Gea and 22 in 26 for Henderson if you include cup games). In fact, it gets a lot worse the longer you look at it:

18/19: 63 goals in 47 games (De Gea)
19/20: 44 goals in 43 games (De Gea)
20/21: 46 goals in 36 games (De Gea) / 22 goals in 26 games (Henderson)
21:22: 66 goals in 46 games (De Gea)
22:23: 57 goals in 53 games (De Gea) so far

So in the last five years literally the only time we conceded less than a goal a game was when we dropped De Gea and bought in Henderson. So it's a very simple question for you - do you think that was a coincidence?

During much of this period we were defensively weak, with limited support from midfield.

We defended like a lower half team and therefore our keeper was subjected to a higher number of shots on his goal.

And it's not like we were set up to attack, and that's why we were being consistently caught out. We were set up to defend and this was to compensate for the weaknesses of our defenders and midfielders.

It didn't work, obviously. The amount of times we would be opened up and the only reason we weren't being battered more frequently was, well...

This season we have seen a shift in game plan. When it works, it has worked well but after years of almost directionless management, we have also had some absolute disasters. But overall, when available, our first choice defensive unit has performed very well. Half of the goals conceded in the league this season came in about 4 games. We've also kept 15 clean sheets.
 
People here are talking as if we're a broke club or something. It's not mainly about the money its about De Gea not being good enough. I don't want him here even is he's on 10K wages.
It’s funny… the internet breeds polarization. There is no nuance. Seriously, you wouldn’t have DeGea here as a backup on 10k wages/week? Really? You’d rather have Butland at 35k a week as backup?

I agree, it’s time to move on from Dave. But let’s not pretend that he was shite, always shite, never had a good season. To me, in the last 30 years, it’s Schmeichel, VDS, DDG in that order. I’d still take DDG over Barthez or Howard, Roy Carroll, Bosnich, all that drivel. It’s not even close. Ben Foster? Gotta be kidding me!

Absolutely, we need to move on from Dave as our no.1. He’ll never be as good as VDS or Schmeichel. But let’s be honest, he was an above average GK for most of his career, had some great seasons sprinkled in amongst the mediocrity.

It’s like the Caf feels compelled to kick him in the nuts on his way out.
 
During much of this period we were defensively weak, with limited support from midfield.

We defended like a lower half team and therefore our keeper was subjected to a higher number of shots on his goal.

And it's not like we were set up to attack, and that's why we were being consistently caught out. We were set up to defend and this was to compensate for the weaknesses of our defenders and midfielders.

It didn't work, obviously. The amount of times we would be opened up and the only reason we weren't being battered more frequently was, well...

This season we have seen a shift in game plan. When it works, it has worked well but after years of almost directionless management, we have also had some absolute disasters. But overall, when available, our first choice defensive unit has performed very well. Half of the goals conceded in the league this season came in about 4 games. We've also kept 15 clean sheets.
Yes, the first (18/19) and last (22/23) seasons that I listed aren't perfect comparisons as there were quite different defensive set-ups in those years. The middle three years are more comparable since the defensive line and play-style were largely the same.

De Gea himself has to take some blame for the weakness of our defence, with his lack of basically doing anything to help except save shots (and even that not to a particularly great ability anymore). That's where a more solid all-round keeper will help out, sweeping, coming for crosses/set pieces, stronger leadership and communication, less possession given away, etc. Once again, we even saw that first hand when Henderson came in and our defence as a whole simply looked more solid and comfortable. It's certainly not all on De Gea of course, but he's a fairly significant contributor to the issues.
 
Let's face it, he's outstayed his welcome, he shouldn't even be kept around as a coach. The game and the team have moved beyond what he can offer. There shouldn't even be a new contract on the table.
 
I don't think Forest have been overly impressed with him.
What do you base that on? I spoke with Forest fans when we went there last month and they were looking forward to him being fit and hoping he came back in ahead of Navas, who the majority didn't overly rate (sods law he went on to have a great game). Someone else on here went through the Forest forum at the time and the views on there were in line with what I'd been told too.
 
Some people might be too young to remember the time when Foster, Carroll and Howard were our no 1 keepers. It was a mess which was way beyond to what we're seeing right now. Sure DDG is in decline but he's still a very valid keeper. With a summer set to be ruined by the takeover, with just 100m to spend and with incompetent people managing the club (DOFs etc) then it makes sense to keep DDG around. Don't mention Henderson. The guy's two only assets are his arrogance and his ability to pick the ball from the net. In fact he conceded 31 goals in 18 matches

Howard was a started for 1 year. Same with Carroll. Foster for what? 2 months?

And actually these examples just justify the reason to bin now DDG. When we actually brought a great GK we stopped going out of Europe due to GK mistakes. DDG has cost us in 3 European runs. He
 
Save percentage is not a very good stat to judge a keeper since it doesnt take into account the "dangerousness" of the shot. A great save counts the same as a easy save for that matter. Neither clean sheets as it's a whole team effort, not only defense and certainly not only goalkeeper.

I'd say the most complete stat to judge a goalkeeper its the PSxG. Meaning how likely is a shot to end up in goal. For example this season Alisson has a +9.3 PSxG meaning an average keeper would have let in 9.3 goals more than Alisson. De Gea has a -1.7 PSxG meaning he's let 1.7 goals more than the average keeper would.

Henderson has a -4.1 PSxG meaning he's even worse than De Gea. But that doesn't mean De Gea is good enough, it only means they're both below average. We need someone class like Alisson.

Stats taken from here:
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats
I’m aware of all of these stats. When you start breaking these down, it gets messy very, very quickly. How many times have we looked at xG versus real results and questioned the metric? It’s one of many tools to evaluate a keeper’s performance. The PSxG +/- has DDG the third best GK last season!!!! Troll back to the 17/18 season and DeGea posted a PSxG +/- of +13.4!!! Was he that good that season? It’s better than any single season that Alisson has ever had! Does that mean DeGea is a better GK? I would say no.

Nuance. That’s all I ask.
 
Howard was a started for 1 year. Same with Carroll. Foster for what? 2 months?

And actually these examples just justify the reason to bin now DDG. When we actually brought a great GK we stopped going out of Europe due to GK mistakes. DDG has cost us in 3 European runs. He
Yeah people do mental gymnastics to justify keeping a poor goalkeeper instead of replacing him. Howard and Carroll were the main goalkeepers during a period where we were adjusting from one incredibly successful team to another, and frankly while it was clear neither of them were long-term number ones, our bigger issue in the those seasons was scoring goals rather than conceding them.

I'd actually love to see our fans reaction today if we replaced De Gea with goalkeepers from League One and the MLS.
 
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