Protests following the killing of George Floyd

DoomSlayer said:
Not in the territory of our nation. The history of their oppression again starts with the West, continued with the Ottoman empire, who treated them as the lowest servants to the sultan, below even the non-muslims.

It's a very broad topic with many historical nuances, but the Romani were never slaves when we've had our own freedom and independence. They were enslaved in territories around current Romania though, but certainly not here or by us.

There is however current racism, which is purposefully created by the ruling elite of the last 30 years, but again, it's very specific to our domestic and internal political and social issues. If I have the time one day, I might make a thread on it, because most people on this forum are clueless when it comes to our part of Europe, since we are literally on the edge and act as a border of the EU.
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Are you claiming there was no racism towards Roma people during communist rule ?
 
SteveJ said:
Honestly, I can't ever see that happening, at least not to the 'depth' the subject merits. The best that future generations of schoolchildren can hope for is the expression of mild regret from historians and the usual distractions of so-called economic necessities, literature officially sanctioned as instructive, letters, poems and the occasional sop of a 'native perspective'; in other words, the same old show.

Let's face it: the powerful rarely criticise themselves, and certainly won't instil doubt in the rebellious young, even at history's distance.
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Tbh @SteveJ even the above is a far better state of education than what we currently have where vast people of educated in Britain are absolutely unaware of even the facts, let alone the dressed up narratives.
 
SteveJ said:
Honestly, I can't ever see that happening, at least not to the 'depth' the subject merits. The best that future generations of schoolchildren can hope for is the expression of mild regret from historians and the usual distractions of so-called economic necessities, literature officially sanctioned as instructive, letters, poems and the occasional sop of a 'native perspective'; in other words, the same old show.

Let's face it: the powerful rarely criticise themselves, and certainly won't instil doubt in the rebellious young, even at history's distance.
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I am a very unpatriotic guy by nature to be honest, so I would see no problem with it, but I think you are right.

Especially with Brexit and the little Britain mindset that we're likely to see when it all goes tits up, I wouldn't be surprised to see more a more pro-British curriculum if anything.
 
PepsiCola said:
Stalin also played a huge part in ww2
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Classical Mechanic said:
I guess he kind of soiled his popularity over in Russia by killing millions of his own people though. Not that I really know much about how he’s viewed there.
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I remember staying with families in Georgia where they had a picture of Stalin on the shelf in the living room (in one case next to a picture of Jesus). The Stalin Museum in Gori was pretty much a celebration of a man who emerged from a small, peripheral nation in the Caucasus to rule the greatest power on earth.
 
iluvoursolskjær said:
Tbh @SteveJ even the above is a far better state of education than what we currently have where vast people of educated in Britain are absolutely unaware of even the facts, let alone the dressed up narratives.
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Yes, sadly it seems that way.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
even in a pre-covid world, I’m not going on a march to protest, as that’s my right, and it’s not how I convey my views. Furthermore, would I challenge every single incident? no of course not, and nor would anyone, you have to choose your battles. You can imagine for yourself an infinite no. of scenarios where you would not make a challenge.

the point is this - to proclaim that if you don’t challenge every abhorrent view/ comment/ perspective makes you complicit is utterly absurd.

do you think that makes me a racist? A tax evasion sympathiser etc? Because that’s the implication I’m getting from you and @PepsiCola?
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Don't be so sensitive. I'm only asking you a question.

So, are you honestly telling me that if people around you were discussing the benefits of paedo rings you wouldn't speak up? Or at least report the matter?
 
2cents said:
I remember staying with families in Georgia where they had a picture of Stalin on the shelf in the living room (in one case next to a picture of Jesus). The Stalin Museum in Gori was pretty much a celebration of a man who emerged from a small, peripheral nation in the Caucasus to rule the greatest power on earth.
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Cheers, that’s kind of fascinating.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I fundamentally disagree with you.

you realise that in what you are saying, you are imposing on people that they should be acting in a certain way - no matter whether the cause is righteous or not.

no, I don’t have to be actively anti-racist.

I can live my life NOT saying a word if I decide to, and that in no way makes me complicit, and in no way do I have a heavy conscious about it. I believe in right and wrong, but no, I do not have to educate people and challenge every view that is wrong.

Because, by your definition, you have to challenge everyone, and every wrong, and every injustice that is on this planet, otherwise I’m complicit in these wrongs.
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If you’re with a group of mates, and they start shouting racial slurs, do you not think you should speak up?
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
Don't be so sensitive. I'm only asking you a question.

So, are you honestly telling me that if people around you were discussing the benefits of paedo rings you wouldn't speak up? Or at least report the matter?
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Of course I would in most situations.

but where do you stop? Do I report a gardener, who I know is not fully declaring his taxes? I cannot be expected to challenge everything, and every opinion, and every action that is wrong.

it’s the other chap who believes that you have to be actively anti something, otherwise you are complicit in that viewpoint which is beyond absurd.
 
starman said:
Maybe actually read what I was quoting in bold rather than you cherry picking the narrative :rolleyes:
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Fair enough I didn't spot that.

I had read the post you replied to already so didn't expand it, therefore it wasn't visible.

I found the cherry picking the narrative thing with the eye roll is a bit unnecessary.

I still don't really see your point. People can be happy a war was won without having to pretend Churchill didn't do some despicable things.
 
Cascarino said:
If you’re with a group of mates, and they start shouting racial slurs, do you not think you should speak up?
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thats in no way what I’m saying.

what I’m saying is that you cannot be expected to challenge everything, all of the time.

thankfully I don’t have friends who throw around racial slurs as I choose to hang around with likeminded, good people.

If we are using hypothetical examples.

Would you, in this current climate, where unemployment is about to rocket, and your job is at risk pull up the CEO of your company on a zoom call in the presence of a dozen other employees for throwing out a racial slur?
 
Drainy said:
That is disgusting. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for British Indians for him to be hero worshipped.

It sounds like his views were extreme, even at the time, so perhaps the British public should have a negative opinion of him, in spite of the victory over the Nazis.

In response to your post above, the history of the British Empire should be taught in schools, warts and all. Not in a way to foster self-hatred, but an age appropriate critical analysis of history.
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Absolutely not. He helped save the world from a far, far worse fate than anything going on today.

I think defacing the Churchill statue will be the turning point for public opinion on the protests in the UK, and you will start to see the police more actively shutting them down now.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
thats in no way what I’m saying.

what I’m saying is that you cannot be expected to challenge everything, all of the time.

thankfully I don’t have friends who throw around racial slurs as I choose to hang around with likeminded, good people.

If we are using hypothetical examples.

Would you, in this current climate, where unemployment is about to rocket, and you job is at risk pull up the CEO of your company on a zoom call in the presence of a dozen other employees for throwing out a racial slur?
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Completely off topic

but why is it

that you post like this?
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I fundamentally disagree with you.

you realise that in what you are saying, you are imposing on people that they should be acting in a certain way - no matter whether the cause is righteous or not.

no, I don’t have to be actively anti-racist.

I can live my life NOT saying a word if I decide to, and that in no way makes me complicit, and in no way do I have a heavy conscious about it. I believe in right and wrong, but no, I do not have to educate people and challenge every view that is wrong.

Because, by your definition, you have to challenge everyone, and every wrong, and every injustice that is on this planet, otherwise I’m complicit in these wrongs.
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Then you have to see you're part of the problem here.

These attitudes contribute to institutional racism and race inequalities existing.

I'm literally just asking people to be anti-racist.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Of course I would in most situations.

but where do you stop? Do I report a gardener, who I know is not fully declaring his taxes? I cannot be expected to challenge everything, and every opinion, and every action that is wrong.

it’s the other chap who believes that you have to be actively anti something, otherwise you are complicit in that viewpoint which is beyond absurd.
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I think you two are just arguing over the semantics really, maybe he didn't word it in the best way. He seems to be implying you should be constantly on your soapbox, finding ways to insert your anti-racism into conversation when no-one even asked.

In reality what I think he and others mean is just to use common sense. If you hear others using racist language, exposing prejudice etc, just challenge it. Staying silent then, would qualify as being complicit imo.
 
starman said:
The trade off is would you or any of the people who have the freedom to talk about it existed if he wasn't in charge to help lead the victory.
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Yet millions also died due to his actions. He was a genocidal villain, equal to the worst of his times.
 

:lol:
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11101 said:
Absolutely not. He helped save the world from a far, far worse fate than anything going on today.

I think defacing the Churchill statue will be the turning point for public opinion on the protests in the UK, and you will start to see the police more actively shutting them down now.
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He also killed millions.

But brown lives clearly arent worth as much ay
 
The Firestarter said:
Street sign "Forbidden for dogs and gypsies " at the entrance of Sea Garden Varna.
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I've heard about them having curfews at certain places as well. But the weird thing is, some Romani people say they lived better back then, because they had jobs.

This is really offtopic though, PM if you want to talk more about it.
 
PepsiCola said:
Yet millions also died due to his actions. He was a genocidal villain, equal to the worst of his times.
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I'm sure every historical figure has done something they shouldn't of done. So what do you suggest? Start pulling his statues down as well? If you keep looking back we'll never move forward. You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder in this thread.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Of course I would in most situations.

but where do you stop? Do I report a gardener, who I know is not fully declaring his taxes? I cannot be expected to challenge everything, and every opinion, and every action that is wrong.

it’s the other chap who believes that you have to be actively anti something, otherwise you are complicit in that viewpoint which is beyond absurd.
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He's right though, if you see something horrible, or someone getting bullied, and you do nothing, you are pretty much complicit. You are the one making up lesser examples like tax dodging..
 
PepsiCola said:
Then you have to see you're part of the problem here.

These attitudes contribute to institutional racism and race inequalities existing.

I'm literally just asking people to be anti-racist.
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no I am not. To suggest that you challenge everyone all of the time is absurd.

Can you honestly tell me that you challenge every opinion or action that you have ever come across that’s wrong?
 
A statue of an actual slave trader being torn down by people demanding fair treatment for black people is one of the least objectionable aspects of these protests it would ever be possible to find.
 
mu4c_20le said:
He's right though, if you see something horrible, or someone getting bullied, and you do nothing, you are pretty much complicit. You are the one making up lesser examples like tax dodging..
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Pretty much complicit, or 100% complicit?

are you “actively anti” every wrong/ immoral/ abhorrent view or illegal situation you come across?
 
The establishment are getting nervous.
 
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