Exactly, you just answered your own question. Its just a matter of which qualities he wants from his nr. 10. For now he obviously wants us to play with a second striker who can interchange with the CF. It became apparent against Tottenham(I think it was) that Herrera can't do that, at times he found himself being the tip of our attack and the move just died because he doesn't have the pace or dribbling to capitalise when we're on the break. Besides I Think that Januzaj has grown little by little with every game so far and he's someone that we need to be persistent with, he's good enough right now to start against 70%+ of the PL teams but another season like the last would seriously damage his development.
Ander Herrera - When will he get a game?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Exactly, you just answered your own question. Its just a matter of which qualities he wants from his nr. 10. For now he obviously wants us to play with a second striker who can interchange with the CF. It became apparent against Tottenham(I think it was) that Herrera can't do that, at times he found himself being the tip of our attack and the move just died because he doesn't have the pace or dribbling to capitalise when we're on the break. Besides I Think that Januzaj has grown little by little with every game so far and he's someone that we need to be persistent with, he's good enough right now to start against 70%+ of the PL teams but another season like the last would seriously damage his development.
I'm starting to get a bit frustrated with this incessant whining over herrera. Yes, he is good but he won't win games on his own and the majority of people here are thinking he will. Januzaj put through Rooneys wrongly disallowed goal and also put through memphis who should have done better and yet for the sake of herrera he is coping much flak from the fans. Herrera excels at linking midfield and attack which is the position which Mata is playing whilst also offering width. Herrera and Fellaini are my favourite players but there isn't an Lvg conspiracy going on...
I've been one of LVG's biggest supporters on here but he's really starting to test my patience with the exclusion of Herrera.
There's not many players in the world, who could win games on their own, let alone one's that are in our squad (ADM sniff sniff..) but Herrera is probably our best player, who would give the current first 11 and set up a better chance to succeed.
Why? He would add bite to our passing, winning back of the ball, increase the tempo and his athleticism would see more quicker 1-2s, offers for the option of an overlap/relief pass etc that would help others massively.
Would we see more goals and assists from him directly or indirectly? Possibly not but I'd say given evidence of last season, with our current midfield and Memphis, we'd see a lot more incision and chances created (which means higher success of goals) with him in the team.
If we were battering teams with 10-15 chances per game and still getting the same result, we would still be moaning but at least it would be just 'we need to finish off our chances'. Atm, it's more like 'for all our possession we create a very low rate of clear cut chances and we're vulnerable because of it'.
It can all change of course with more games, but that's a gamble, having a known quantity like Herrera on the bench is an even bigger one imo.
Get Herrera into the team as the #10 and move Januzaj to the right or bring in Young. If LvG does not think Mata is a #10, then he surely is not a winger. Mata keeps drifting into the middle and offers nothing, absolutely nothing on the right side of the pitch. This allows defenses to pack the middle and the left side of the pitch. I absolutely would prefer Herrera as the #10. He is very creative when given the chance, and he showed last season that he can score goals and has a bite in the tackle.
After watching Januzaj in the last 3 games, I would rather have Herrera than him (and I recognize that he has scored the winner against Villa). There are two main reasons.
First, Januzaj has been benched a lot last season and I wanted to see him playing more this season. However, I am not sure that moving from not playing at all to playing constantly is necessarily good for him or us. He needs to go back but in a measured way. Sure, if the scores the winner every game, no one would ask for him to be dropped, but that's not the case.
Second, Januzaj lacks end product. He has loads of possession of the ball, but he does not create enough chances to his teammates and does not constitute a constant threat on our opponents. I was expecting him to do more on both fronts given his position in the the last 3 games. Januzaj also loses the ball a lot and holds the ball too long, and I think that he lacks the vision of Herrera. The latter sees the game better, passes better, holds the ball when needed but also releases it when needed. Overall, he is a better decision maker and certainly a better playmaker. In this respect, I thought that the short-mid range passes inside the box have been lacking in our first 4 games, and I think that Herrera can do more on that front.
With Herrera on board, I can also see clear "hierarchy" in our creative midfield. The game shouldn't be centered around him, but he should be the man to pass the ball in the decisive minutes when we are searching for a goal, particularly if Fellaini is not in the team. When it comes to the low passes inside the box, I trust Herrera the most. In the Newcastle game, he should have been after Hernandez was introduced.
Besides that, what explains the sudden shift in the attitude towards Herrera (who was one of our best players last season)? I'm very surprised and hopeful that nothing has happened that we don't know about and that it is just LVG trying different things early in this campaign.
First, Januzaj has been benched a lot last season and I wanted to see him playing more this season. However, I am not sure that moving from not playing at all to playing constantly is necessarily good for him or us. He needs to go back but in a measured way. Sure, if the scores the winner every game, no one would ask for him to be dropped, but that's not the case.
Second, Januzaj lacks end product. He has loads of possession of the ball, but he does not create enough chances to his teammates and does not constitute a constant threat on our opponents. I was expecting him to do more on both fronts given his position in the the last 3 games. Januzaj also loses the ball a lot and holds the ball too long, and I think that he lacks the vision of Herrera. The latter sees the game better, passes better, holds the ball when needed but also releases it when needed. Overall, he is a better decision maker and certainly a better playmaker. In this respect, I thought that the short-mid range passes inside the box have been lacking in our first 4 games, and I think that Herrera can do more on that front.
With Herrera on board, I can also see clear "hierarchy" in our creative midfield. The game shouldn't be centered around him, but he should be the man to pass the ball in the decisive minutes when we are searching for a goal, particularly if Fellaini is not in the team. When it comes to the low passes inside the box, I trust Herrera the most. In the Newcastle game, he should have been after Hernandez was introduced.
Besides that, what explains the sudden shift in the attitude towards Herrera (who was one of our best players last season)? I'm very surprised and hopeful that nothing has happened that we don't know about and that it is just LVG trying different things early in this campaign.
Our defence absolutely needs Morgan. But the problem is he isn't a passer yet to play Carrick's role by himself which is why we need someone alongside him good at passing. While Herrera is a good passer he isn't anywhere near Carrick schweinsteiger levels in controlling games (because that's not his position for one ). as for him at #10, he is a #8 player and very good at that. But we need a more attack minded no.10. Januzaj played three games and has created a few chances, scored a goal. Rooney not scoring is a problem but the problem is we don't have a striker good enough to replace him and that hasn't got anything to do with Herrera not playing too unless u see him as a false 9.
Januzaj scored a goal in his first game, had a decent game in the qualifier and even created some good chances as another poster said. If he wasn't given another start, people would be moaning why januzaj isn't starting even when he performed well.
If we play Schmidfield + Herrera we will dominate every other team we are up against - as simple as that. It is not as if Memphis/Januzaj had been doing great in attacking midfield role either.
We might dominate, but will it result to scoring more or blowing teams away? I doubt it. Our issue in attack is really more than getting Herrera into the side and problem solved.
I'm with @Blue always red on this. I'm tired of the constant moaning about Herrera here. You'll think he'll immediately transform the team into a winning machine with his introduction. It's a bit like blaming 3-5-2 for our poor style of play and chanting 4-4-2, it's deeper than that, and I rate Herrera but we could have had 2 of him out there yesterday and still not score a goal in 4 years.
I think the worst thing that happened for Ander yesterday was that we didn't score. The last two league games he has come on to shut the game down. If we had scored when we had all that early pressure we would likely have seen him in the second half. If the game on Tuesday had been a league game and not a CL game it was the perfect game for him to come on. Unfortunately it wasn't and instead of trying to sit on a lead we needed another goal, so LvG had to make striking substitutions which luckily for him worked. He will get minutes but to me for the wrong reasons. He has a lot more to his game than just closing games down. In a way the fact our strikers are so useless is helping him because they aren't scoring enough goals to kill games off.
The Carrick switch made sense. The Valencia one made no sense whatsoever. We need a goal and he brings on a RB whose attacking output has been awful for a few seasons. Should have subbed Herrera on for Morgan.
Everyone talk about him as if he's some kind of savior, what did he do in those 3 games we lost last season after Carrick got injured against City?
No, he switched to 3 at the back, put Valencia on the wings and moved Mata inside. It was a good tactical decision.
No one is saying he would have single-handedly changed things but he is a player who has scored inportant goals for us and is an attacking mid who also has good passes on him to open up defenses. So why would LVG not try that in a game where we are obviously lacking a cutting edge and the opponent is there to get a draw and have parked the bus.
People may disagree but our performances are very similar to Bayern's during LVG's stint there. A lot of possession but unless someone comes up with a moment of brilliance, there is very little goal threat. I don't want us to be like that because then we start relying solely on individuals rather than team play for opening up the opposition.
We won't win anything under LVG
Mata was always roaming inside and honestly there was not much of a formation change which I noticed. You could be right but to bring in a make-shift RB who is a washed up winger when we need a goal is dreadful. Bring on Young ffs if you think that a formation change is important. At least he would have provided better crosses and a goal threat.
That's the reason he should be playing, this regimented system is boring to watch
Very depressing to think ahead to the inevitable acrimonious and massively under-value departure of Herrera, probably next summer. I'd be thinking of bailing before this window shuts if I was him.
I wrote this earlier this morning and I do think this is the problem at the moment. I do actually think he will end up playing. LvG will run Morgan into the ground, Bastian is odds on to get injured and eventually LvG will realise this system isn't working. Probably after a tonking from one of the big teams.
I agree with the second paragraph and I don't want to go away from the topic but it once again highlights the need for a DOF, I mean, by bringing Van Gaal, people should have known the kind of football we would play, it's like hiring Guardiola and expecting him to play Gung Ho champagne football. However, the thing is, we're not even playing like LVG's Bayern yet, we're still too slow in possession, his Bayern side passed it around with more purpose & urgency, and relied on the brilliance of Robben & Ribery to apply the finishing touches, we don't have that. On Herrera, yes, having him in the team would help, but he's not the one to play the final pass, that's not his strength.
He should partner Schneirderlin in Brugge
Our biggest issue is the tempo of circulation of the ball and decision making with the final pass. Our passing tempo isnt consistent yet and our final crosses were almost always wrong vs Newcastle
I agree he doesn't always play the final pass, but he can, he wouldn't have any assists if he didn't. I think he sets the tempo more than anything. He is great to come on if the other side is taking over and the pace of the game is dropping. Instead of doing that he is being asked to just close the game down. Just sit there and pass the ball from side to side so the other side don't get it. We just don't go for the throat anymore. Maybe we won't until we get another striker who can actually score.
Agree with you 100% we need Hererra in for Adnan as he's quite simply a far more accomplished player at this stage. Mata stops all momentum down that right hand side too so that needs altered. Depay should not be an automatic starter just like Ronaldo and Nani weren't when they first came but he is and that's because the standard of our wingers is dreadful in front of him. Fix these two positions and watch us fly.
The main reason why I believe LVG is persisting with Januzaj and Mata is because they are both creative whilst having the ability to create a goal from nothing for themselves. Ander on the otherhand, like others have pointed out, has fantastic qualities which allow him to play balls in behind the defense, like he did to Mata against Pool. The only problem with this, as others have pointed out, is we have no off the ball movement. Having bite and zipping about the pitch is all well and good as proven by Barca, but when you're playing in an LVG system there is little room for it and the players are instructed this way. I don't think Herrera will get a constant run of games under him which is a shame because he is without doubt the player in the current squad I see being the biggest Fergies player. He's what I hoped Claverley will turn out to be.
Echoed my thoughts. Ander is not a LvG type of player it seems, which is, indeed, a real shame.
Ander Not Allowed
I'm not sure that Januzaj and Mata are the right players to have (especially at the same time) when you're introducing Chicharito. Herrera is much better with that, particularly in comparison with Januzaj. The young Belgian does not create opportunities for his teammates and so I can't see why he is better in this system than Herrera. I also don't think that he's better at creating goals out of nowhere. How many times did he do that? With Januzaj and Mata playing concurrently, we end up with players who don't score much, don't really create the goals out of nowhere and don't pass to Rooney/Hernandez. Furthermore, you typically need players to scores these out-of-nowhere goals when the team is desperate for a goal, but guess what? Both on Tuesday and yesterday, Januzaj was subbed towards the end. So, no, it's not about that IMO.
Plus, if LVG prefers players like Januzaj over Herrera, why on earth did he bench him so much last season while letting HERRERA play? It makes no sense to me unless something happened over the summer that we don't know about. If Herrera starts this week and does well, then I can see him starting for a while at the expense of Januzaj. LVG gives players chances and if they do well, he sticks with them. It does not mean he necessarily prefers these players over others.
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Ironically, it's Ander who actually provides a lot of this. He / Fellaini / Morgan ahead of Carrick or Bastian would be preferable.
Any decision that involves putting Valencia on the wing is a bad decision.
Herrera at the top of a 3 man midfield will bring back all the penetration and fluidity we need.
We will be scoring at will.
But van Gaal obviously has other ideas about the formation and team he wants to play.
We will be scoring at will.
But van Gaal obviously has other ideas about the formation and team he wants to play.
As I said somewhere else - he's got Nani written all over him.
Very talented player, but never believed in by the manager, thus leading to a cycle infernal, whereby he's only as good as his last game and little leeway is afforded.
Come next summer, I see him moving to Valencia, or somewhere similar.
Very talented player, but never believed in by the manager, thus leading to a cycle infernal, whereby he's only as good as his last game and little leeway is afforded.
Come next summer, I see him moving to Valencia, or somewhere similar.
The main issue with Herrera is that he is to bloody likeable so most of the fans (me included) want him in the team every week.
With a cold heart I'd argue the player that United are missing the most at the moment is Fellaini...
But screw that!!! I want baby face back in the team so he can play lovely sweet passes to Mata.
With a cold heart I'd argue the player that United are missing the most at the moment is Fellaini...
But screw that!!! I want baby face back in the team so he can play lovely sweet passes to Mata.
Herrera offers a lot more currently than Januzaj but Januzaj has the massive potential and is a rough diamond.....I'm amazed Januzaj is playing ahead of Ander...Januzaj has been completely anonymous in all games he's played for us this season despite getting a goal and showing some glimpses of what he will be capable of
There's manlove and then there's this.
I lose a little bit of faith in LVG every time Herrera is chewing his nails on the bench while our midfield is disjointed because the number 10 thinks he's a second stirker in a 4-4-2. There was time on Saturday we had the ball around our midfield two and there was a huge gap between them and our next player upfront, the ball ended up getting recycled to the side and eventually back to the defense, bringing the tempo to a near halt. I looked at Januzaj at the time and he was nonchalantly standing close to Rooney and ignoring the huge space for him to drop into and receive the ball from his midfield partners, one of them who happens to be a world class passer. I kept thinking how Herrera would have used that space to great attacking effect and it was sad. It makes so much sense for LVG to play a midfield of Shneidy, Shweiny, Herrera it boggles the mind why he's not. I really like what LVG did at Barca and Bayern, and I hesitate to say but I think time may be catching up with him.
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You noticed he bites his nails as well. I was shouting at the TV for him to stop it.
You noticed he bites his nails as well. I was shouting at the TV for him to stop it.
Watching Silva for City is exactly how I'd want Herrera to be played for us. He's not as good as Silva. Silva, in my opinion, is the best in the world at what he does, but having a 10 that controls the game, with wingers who keep the width, makes a massive difference. Really don't know Van Gaal won't at least try it.